Garry Sobers v Imran Khan,Test Cricket:Poll

[smash84]

Would Imran get in a Test side as just a batsman? Yes. But not many top ones.

Would Sobers get in a Test side just as a bowler? Yes. Not all, but quite a number over the years.

6 hundreds in 88 Tests isn't exactly top 6 material. Even Matty Prior has 6 in just 47 games.

This is where Ikki successfully managed to denigrate a cricketer

Imran won't make the cut to many top sides purely as a batsman but Sobers would make it to even lesser test sides purely as a bowler. His average is not very good for a regular bowler and his SR as a bowler is genuinely bad (even by taking into account the SR of his times). IIRC Tendulkar as a bowler has a similar SR in tests.

there is only one that is definitely better, the rest of the cases are arguable at best and there are not too many of those who can really be compared to him as a batsman....

Yeah he is right up there in the league of batsmen. Possibly higher than Imran as a bowler but only by a very small margin. so it is fair to assume that their stronger suits cancel each other out.

It is the weaker suit that comes into play here and Sobers's bowling doesn't seem all that great. Probably lesser than Imran's batting.

 

[smash84]

Really?

I'd put maybe 4 or 5 batsmen all time ahead of ahead of Sobers, if that.

I'd put about 7-10 bowlers who have played since 1990 ahead of Imran!

Ugh. Not again. There was another guy who said there were 20 bowlers better than Imran whom he could count off the top of his head and when asked to name them he put in the likes of Rodney Hogg etc

 

[Darth018]

Possibly higher than Imran as a bowler but only by a very small margin. so it is fair to assume that their stronger suits cancel each other out.

Not at all. He is batting is by far ahead of Khan's bowling.

 

[BlazeDragon]

Not at all. He is batting is by far ahead of Khan's bowling.

True. Imran Khan isn't even debatable as the second greatest bowler.

 

[smash84]

Not at all. He is batting is by far ahead of Khan's bowling.

How would you define far ahead here?

 

[Darth018]

How would you define far ahead here?

Imran Khan isn't even debatable as the second greatest bowler.

This. I would define it with his superior batting stats.

How would you define their superior skills cancel each other out?

 

[ankitj]

How about Bradman vs Imran or Bradman vs Sobers threads? They will be interesting too.

 

[smash84]

This. I would define it with his superior batting stats.

How would you define their superior skills cancel each other out?

If you base it on stats alone (especially bowling average) then you might make a case for Imran's bowling edging out Sobers's batting. Imran's bowling average is under 30 in EVERY country that he bowled in . Not even McGrath, Hadlee or Marshall have that distinction.

Sobers in batting otoh did not do that well against NZ in general and in NZ in particular. Also his record in Pakistan wasn't that great.

Which is why I say that their stronger skills cancel each other out.

 

[smash84]

How about Bradman vs Imran or Bradman vs Sobers threads? They will be interesting too.

That would depend on how you frame the question in the Sobers vs Bradman thread. If you ask for the cricketer people will take Sobers. Batting wise I think Bradman will trump everybody.

 

[honestbharani]

This is where Ikki successfully managed to denigrate a cricketer

Imran won't make the cut to many top sides purely as a batsman but Sobers would make it to even lesser test sides purely as a bowler. His average is not very good for a regular bowler and his SR as a bowler is genuinely bad (even by taking into account the SR of his times). IIRC Tendulkar as a bowler has a similar SR in tests.



Yeah he is right up there in the league of batsmen. Possibly higher than Imran as a bowler but only by a very small margin. so it is fair to assume that their stronger suits cancel each other out.

It is the weaker suit that comes into play here and Sobers's bowling doesn't seem all that great. Probably lesser than Imran's batting.

I would love to hear your reasoning for the word "seem".. Based on everything I have read from some of the best guys on cricket, Sobers' bowling >> Imran's batting...

 

[smash84]

I would love to hear your reasoning for the word "seem".. Based on everything I have read from some of the best guys on cricket, Sobers' bowling >> Imran's batting...

Before I go into arguing against Sobers I must say that most of what I will be saying is what I read from Ikki so it will have some stats involved (stats warning for HB )

By seem I meant an average of 34 and a SR of 92 doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

A closer examination of his bowling record is even stranger. His average against Pakistan in 8 test matches is 113.5 and a SR of 356.2. Ouch. 8 test matches is not a very small sample. This kind of an average and SR is unheard of even for the likes of Sami.

The only team that he seems to have done well against bowling wise is India where he averages under 26.



The only advantage of Sobers's bowling seems to be the versatility in his bowling. And before someone points out that he used to bowl fast on pitches suiting spin and used to bowl spin on fast pitches (it sounds like an insult to his intelligence).

 

[Slifer]

Before I go into arguing against Sobers I must say that most of what I will be saying is what I read from Ikki so it will have some stats involved (stats warning for HB )

By seem I meant an average of 34 and a SR of 92 doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

A closer examination of his bowling record is even stranger. His average against Pakistan in 8 test matches is 113.5 and a SR of 356.2. Ouch. 8 test matches is not a very small sample. This kind of an average and SR is unheard of even for the likes of Sami.

The only team that he seems to have done well against bowling wise is India where he averages under 26.



The only advantage of Sobers's bowling seems to be the versatility in his bowling. And before someone points out that he used to bowl fast on pitches suiting spin and used to bowl spin on fast pitches (it sounds like an insult to his intelligence).

Looked that stat up myself and sure enough its their. Damn thats awful!!!!

 

[Outswinger@Pace]

The only advantage of Sobers's bowling seems to be the versatility in his bowling. And before someone points out that he used to bowl fast on pitches suiting spin and used to bowl spin on fast pitches (it sounds like an insult to his intelligence).

Sample this:

Case A
If I am the skipper and know that we have an upcoming test on a green Trent Bridge deck. I'd want to go in with three/four mainstream fast bowlers in my final eleven.

For a bit of much-needed variation (without having to sacrifice a main batsman from the playing 11), I'd ask Mr. Sobers to bowl left-arm spin in the match. And he'd do it, knowing fully well that it is personally not the wisest things to do, but the best for the sake of balance and team interests.

Case B
The case could be the reverse on a dusty sub-continental deck where an extra spinner may be accommodated in the pursuit of getting twenty wickets. In the interests of pulling the opposition batsmen out of their comfort zones (not giving them too much of the same thing), my man Sobers could be asked to bowl genuinely quick or fast-medium cutters.


I have a feeling that the West Indian think-tank of that period reasoned along these lines. Obviously, in both the above cases, it goes against his personal numbers. But exactly how relevant was the Sobers' variation (and thereby, unsettling) factor in the bowler at the other end getting wickets cannot be quantitatively measured. Taking nothing away from the accomplished pacers and spinners in that team, but my impression is that it was monumental.

 

[smash84]

Looked that stat up myself and sure enough its their. Damn thats awful!!!!

Exactly. I am not a fan of only looking at stats but this one is hard to miss.

Maybe HonestBharani can help me understand how Sobers's bowling is >> Imran's batting. I could at least understand if somebody says that Sobers's bowling > Imran's batting and the difference is marginal but to say that Sobers's bowling >> Imran's bowling is stretching it IMO. Also Sobers averages 40 against Australia and strikes a shade under 100. This does not look like good bowling to me. Maybe I am going wrong somewhere but I would be happy to be corrected. As I pointed out earlier that the only team that he has a good average against with a decent SR is India. Against all other opposition he really doesn't look that great a bowler.

 

[smash84]

Sample this:

Case A
If I am the skipper and know that we have an upcoming test on a green Trent Bridge deck. I'd want to go in with three/four mainstream fast bowlers in my final eleven.

For a bit of much-needed variation (without having to sacrifice a main batsman from the playing 11), I'd ask Mr. Sobers to bowl left-arm spin in the match. And he'd do it, knowing fully well that it is personally not the wisest things to do, but the best for the sake of balance and team interests.

Case B
The case could be the reverse on a dusty sub-continental deck where an extra spinner may be accommodated in the pursuit of getting twenty wickets. In the interests of pulling the opposition batsmen out of their comfort zones (not giving them too much of the same thing), my man Sobers could be asked to bowl genuinely quick or fast-medium cutters.


I have a feeling that the West Indian think-tank of that period reasoned along these lines. Obviously, in both the above cases, it goes against his personal numbers. But exactly how relevant was the Sobers' variation (and thereby, unsettling) factor in the bowler at the other end getting wickets cannot be quantitatively measured. Taking nothing away from the accomplished pacers and spinners in that team, but my impression is that it was monumental.

OSP your cases do make some sense but I don't know if Sobers was considered equally good in all areas of bowling. Naturally one or the other (i.e. fast or spin) would have been his stronger suit. As you say that it was not the wisest thing to do because on a fast bowler's track Sobers would have found assistance for pace bowling if the other bowlers were not as effective. So it would make more sense for him to use fast bowling more than spin just for the sake of variety. The other way around for pitches supporting spin.

 

[Ikki]

By seem I meant an average of 34 and a SR of 92 doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

And, TBF, that stat hides just how bad he was for the majority of his career. There was a genuine period in the 60s where he was a very good bowler; but over a 20 year career it is not much. I remember in years other than the few years in the 60s where he was bowling genuinely well, he averaged 40+ and struck at around 100 - this being the majority of his career.

BTW, love how my arguments and stats are all fantastic here but aren't in the other thread...when basically they are the same type of arguments - era, etc.

 

[Ikki]

Sample this:

We had a big Sobers thread I remember where we dissected the reasons why Sobers' bowling is so bad statistically and people brought up him bowling what would have hurt his figures - i.e. pace on spin friendly pitches and spin in pace friendly pitches.

Other than the fact that this didn't make much sense from a tactical point of view; his contemporaries generally included many all-rounders, at least one recognised spinner and other pace bowlers. The idea that he had to take a hit for the others is not grounded in reality. Yet people still mention it as some sort of legitimate theory without concrete examples to back it.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Too young to have seen Sobers so not really able to make a fair comparison. Imran was pretty good though.

 

[smash84]

BTW, love how my arguments and stats are all fantastic here but aren't in the other thread...when basically they are the same type of arguments - era, etc.

When did I say that your arguments are not fantastic in any other thread?

 

[Ikki]

When did I say that your arguments are not fantastic in any other thread?

Really? Apologies. Almost seemed to me as if you disagreed with everything I said