Fringe Aussie fringe Players who would excel in other teams..

[tooextracool]

So ur saying Flintoff last season was down to good luck, considering he had done nothing in the previous 5 seasons..

can you read? i said brett lee bowling well in his first season was all down to look and the next 5 seasons have proven to be a more accurate reflection of how rubbish he is. f

Fair enough u have to be consistent for long period to be classified as a good bowler, but i still think he is far more then a medicore bowler. You don't take 4 wickets per test over a 3 to 4 period and still be classified as a mediocre bowler. His average might be high but so are allot of bowlers of his generation, as pitiches are batter freindly.

and the fact that flintoff has been taking wickets at a much cheaper price since the tour of SL means nothing to you?

 

[Zinzan]

can you read? i said brett lee bowling well in his first season was all down to look and the next 5 seasons have proven to be a more accurate reflection of how rubbish he is. f



and the fact that flintoff has been taking wickets at a much cheaper price since the tour of SL means nothing to you?

Why would Aust even consider dropping one of there top 6 (assuming Flintoff was Australian) in their test side.

Do you really believe they need a forth seamer along with Mcgrath, Gillespie, Kaspa and Warne??

I suppose it because their existing attack have so much trouble bowling sides out....is that right??

Remember I'm talking test cricket here

 

[marc71178]

You don't believe your slightly one-eyed with regards Flintoff Marc??

I was talking about Lee - and there's nobody who can deny he's been less effective since his injury.

 

[Zinzan]

I was talking about Lee - and there's nobody who can deny he's been less effective since his injury.

Correct....Wouldn't deny that for a second

But that wasn't my question to you, my question to you was with regards Flintoff

 

[marc71178]

I wouldn't say I was to be honest - his last year or so he has been excellent, and its got to the stage where I don't know if he's more useful as a batsman or bowler - I thought batsman, but with the ball he has been superb, especially in South Africa.

 

[Zinzan]

I wouldn't say I was to be honest - his last year or so he has been excellent, and its got to the stage where I don't know if he's more useful as a batsman or bowler - I thought batsman, but with the ball he has been superb, especially in South Africa.[/QUOTE

Agree, He seems equally as strong with bat and ball at the moment.But he IMO is a "good" test batsmen and a "good" test bowler. Problem is that to get in to the current top (fully fit) Aust test side you need to be a excellent test bat and a excellent test bowler.

You still never answered my question as to whether Aust test side needs another bowler?? I don't think they do...

Anyway....Lets agree to disagree, because we seem to be going around in circles.

I think Flintoff's good enough to be in any test side in the world at the moment, with the exception of Aust and you disagree.

 

[marc71178]

I think it's TEC who disagrees.

If Australia wanted the shape they had in the last game I think Flintoff would walk into it, but otherwise his batting does need to improve (unless you move Gillchrist to 6 and put him at 7)

However if there were 1 injury to the 3 seamers, then the whole thing would definitely change.

 

[Zinzan]

I think it's TEC who disagrees.

If Australia wanted the shape they had in the last game I think Flintoff would walk into it, but otherwise his batting does need to improve (unless you move Gillchrist to 6 and put him at 7)

However if there were 1 injury to the 3 seamers, then the whole thing would definitely change.

TEC??

 

[chaminda_00]

can you read? i said brett lee bowling well in his first season was all down to look and the next 5 seasons have proven to be a more accurate reflection of how rubbish he is. f

All i was commenting on was the fact that u said that u need to be consistent for 5 years to rated as a good bowler or batsmen. Flintoff only been decent for a season. Therefore u could say last season was down to luck just like u said Brett Lee first season was.

and the fact that flintoff has been taking wickets at a much cheaper price since the tour of SL means nothing to you?

It does mean something to mean but that fact is he only has one 5wh aganist WI . You have to be wicket taking bowler to be good in test cricket, which Flintoff clearly isn't compared Brett Lee. It does matter how cheap u get your wicket, but it is more important how many wicket that u get. So therefore Brett Lee is a better bowler then Flintoff as he takes more wickets per Test, which also gives u a greater chance of getting 20 wickets. You need to take 20 wickets to win a test not keep a team under 3.5 an over.

 

[Zinzan]

I think it's TEC who disagrees.

If Australia wanted the shape they had in the last game I think Flintoff would walk into it, but otherwise his batting does need to improve (unless you move Gillchrist to 6 and put him at 7)

However if there were 1 injury to the 3 seamers, then the whole thing would definitely change.

But I'm assuming NO injuries. Remember i did say he'd be fighting out with Lee for 12th man.

 

[vic_orthdox]

yes well done, now go ahead and show me how well the threesome of clarke, hayden and lehmann did in their last series?
and can any of them bowl? hell no.

clarke has a fairly reasonable test bowling average.

but in all seriousness, if australia were to pick their best side for test cricket against their best opposition, they would love another world class allrounder to pair with gilchrist, and flintoff would be it. the selectors indicated this by selecting watson before he had completely earnt his spot.

 

[Zinzan]

clarke has a fairly reasonable test bowling average.

but in all seriousness, if australia were to pick their best side for test cricket against their best opposition, they would love another world class allrounder to pair with gilchrist, and flintoff would be it. the selectors indicated this by selecting watson before he had completely earnt his spot.

Disagree. I think the current Aust side (fully fit) has the perfect balance. They bat way down to 7 (and have a handy lowerorder) and have 4 specialised match winning bowlers in Mcgrath, gillispie, Kaspa and warne

 

[Greg Blewett]

On with the original topic and not sure if he has been mentioned but Brad Hodge is one player I think could do well at International level but will more than likely miss out. Over the past few years he has improved quite a bit.

Disagree. I think the current Aust side (fully fit) has the perfect balance. They bat way down to 7 (and have a handy lowerorder) and have 4 specialised match winning bowlers in Mcgrath, gillispie, Kaspa and warne

Flintoff would walk straight into the ODI Aus. side, no two ways about it. He is easily that good, he would knock out Symonds/Watson/Lehmann any day. Same goes for tests, would replace Lehmann.

 

[Jamee999]

Hodgey was the best county player ever last year, Class player, Class Club.

 

[Zinzan]

On with the original topic and not sure if he has been mentioned but Brad Hodge is one player I think could do well at International level but will more than likely miss out. Over the past few years he has improved quite a bit.




Flintoff would walk straight into the ODI Aus. side, no two ways about it. He is easily that good, he would knock out Symonds/Watson/Lehmann any day. Same goes for tests, would replace Lehmann.

Agree in onedayers (infact would may my world oneday side)

Totally disagree in test matches ....

Each to their own

 

[chaminda_00]

Hodge hasn;t done well for Australia A over the years when selected, apart from one series aganist South Africa A. But his first class and ING record is second none. Don't think he would make too many test sides apart from the Windies though.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

It does mean something to mean but that fact is he only has one 5wh aganist WI . You have to be wicket taking bowler to be good in test cricket, which Flintoff clearly isn't compared Brett Lee. It does matter how cheap u get your wicket, but it is more important how many wicket that u get. So therefore Brett Lee is a better bowler then Flintoff as he takes more wickets per Test, which also gives u a greater chance of getting 20 wickets. You need to take 20 wickets to win a test not keep a team under 3.5 an over.

Ok, let's be sensible here...

Flintoff career overs per Test: 29.3.
Lee career overs per Test: 33.24

Flintoff's last 20 Tests: 3.45 wickets per game
69 wickets at 25.81
1 5-wicket
Almost 31 wickets per match.

Lee's last 20 Tests: 3.35 wickets per game
67 wickets at 39.40
0 5-wicket
Almost 35 overs per match.

For a fair period now, Flintoff has bowled less overs per match, taken wickets a lot cheaper and more consistently than Lee. What say you?

 

[chaminda_00]

Ok, let's be sensible here...

Flintoff career overs per Test: 29.3.
Lee career overs per Test: 33.24

Flintoff's last 20 Tests: 3.45 wickets per game
69 wickets at 25.81
1 5-wicket
Almost 31 wickets per match.

Lee's last 20 Tests: 3.35 wickets per game
67 wickets at 39.40
0 5-wicket
Almost 35 overs per match.

For a fair period now, Flintoff has bowled less overs per match, taken wickets a lot cheaper and more consistently than Lee. What say you?

Who were the sides that Flintoff played in his last 20 and the sides that Lee played. I think you will find that the quality of the batting line-up excluding BAN were better for Brett Lee. I could be wrong i have been many times in the past.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Who were the sides that Flintoff played in his last 20 and the sides that Lee played. I think you will find that the quality of the batting line-up excluding BAN were better for Brett Lee. I could be wrong i have been many times in the past.

Top three batsmen (statistically) listed from each opponent. This is just to give an indication of the potency of the lineup. Of course it's not completely accurate.

Flintoff and Lee both faced...

West Indies-
BC Lara: 52.84 and the double world record holder.
S Chanderpaul: 44.37
RR Sarwan: 40.97

South Africa-
JH Kallis: 55.55
GC Smith: 51.37
HH Gibbs: 48.12

Flintoff faced...

New Zealand-
MH Richardson: 44.77
JDP Oram: 43.56
SP Fleming: 39.32

Sri Lanka-
KC Sangakkara: 49.27
DPMdS Jayawardene: 48.34
ST Jayasuriya: 43.45

Lee faced...

Zimbabwe-
Not necessarily to list really.

Bangladesh-
See Zim.

India-
R Dravid: 57.52
SR Tendulkar: 57.43
V Sehwag: 51.73

England-
MP Vaughan: 44.20
GP Thorpe: 43.94
ME Trescothick: 43.00

Pakistan-
Inzamam-ul-Haq: 48.97
Yousuf Youhana: 47.47
Yasir Hamee: 42.62

Both players have faced some pretty class opposition, but Lee has had the luxury of facing Bangladesh AND Zimbabwe in between. Even then he only took 12 wickets in 4 Tests at 34.33 with an economy rate of 3.36.

I don't see any argument to say that Lee is a better Test bowler than Flintoff. Flintoff may not have flash career stats, but neither does Lee. The difference is that Flintoff started very poorly and has turned into a very good bowler, whereas Lee is the other way around.

 

[Zinzan]

I don't see any argument to say that Lee is a better Test bowler than Flintoff. Flintoff may not have flash career stats, but neither does Lee. The difference is that Flintoff started very poorly and has turned into a very good bowler, whereas Lee is the other way around.

Lee is bowling a lot better now than he was when his test career started to decline. Oneday cricket or not, anyone (unless they plainly just hate Lee) that knows anything about cricket or have played at a reasonable level will acknowledge that he was superb with the new ball though-out the VB series. He was man of the series remember.

All those Stats you've put together may be fact, they are completely irelevant to the way Lee is bowling at the moment(as opposed to 12 months ago). You've said yourself that Flintoff has improved as a bowler (to which I totally agree), then why can't Lee improve? You can't deny the Guy's potential and natural pace. The fact is he's bowling brilliantly at the moment and there is no reason that he won't find the same form in test cricket.

The key for Lee (or any express pace bowler) to be successful is to maintain "control". When he was struggling at test level (and it was a good couple of years) he had terrible control and got hammered by good batsmen. At the moment he clearly has got great control. Probably the best of his career.

No-one doubts your stats....but you know as well as me you've just used them conviently in this case to back up your argument.

Do you really think Lee was bowling crap thru-out the VB series??

Have you played cricket yourself at the top level? If so, surely you know your cricket and can appreciate great fast bowling when you see it.

How good are his full pitched fast swinging full deliveries to Lefthanders at the moment??