Fred Trueman vs Joel Garner

[capt_Luffy]

@capt_Luffy should I rate Barnes even higher? Isn't being able to bowl leg breaks with such action at the age of 80 too good?

I rate him 4th.

 

[sayon basak]

I rate him 4th.

Among quicks? Or overall?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Andy Flower had an average of 50+ but that doesn’t Zimbabwe were not minnows

India also had Vijay Merchant, CK Nayudu and IIRC Rusi Modi in the batting, combined with arguably the best pace pair. And like, 90s Zimbabwe were not minnows. They drew a series in India and won 1 in Pakistan, as well as against them.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Among quicks? Or overall?

Both

 

[Johan]

Everything combined? hmmm Spinners + Pacers would be

1. Malcolm Marshall
2. Glenn McGrath
3. Richard Hadlee
4. Sydney Barnes
5. Curtly Ambrose
6. Dale Steyn
7. Imran Khan
8. Dennis Lillee/Fred Trueman
9. Dennis Lillee/Fred Trueman
10. Shane Warne

 

[ankitj]

nobody ... more than me

Ok Trump

 

[sayon basak]

Everything combined? hmmm Spinners + Pacers would be

1. Malcolm Marshall
2. Glenn McGrath
3. Richard Hadlee
4. Sydney Barnes
5. Curtly Ambrose
6. Dale Steyn
7. Imran Khan
8. Dennis Lillee/Fred Trueman
9. Dennis Lillee/Fred Trueman
10. Shane Warne

Give up trolling.

 

[Johan]

Give up trolling.

spinners suck

 

[capt_Luffy]

Everything combined? hmmm Spinners + Pacers would be

1. Malcolm Marshall
2. Glenn McGrath
3. Richard Hadlee
4. Sydney Barnes
5. Curtly Ambrose
6. Dale Steyn
7. Imran Khan
8. Dennis Lillee/Fred Trueman
9. Dennis Lillee/Fred Trueman
10. Shane Warne

So Warne over Garner??

 

[kyear2]

Then how do you rate Hobbs as a great one?

He made it past WW1, which is my hard cut off, and Hobbs was just supreme.

But for all time teams etc? No please.

 

[sayon basak]

Here's Boycott talking about Barnes and initially talks about how we should rate players from such time period.

Wise words.

 

[Johan]

So Warne over Garner??

perhaps

 

[sayon basak]

perhaps

If I may ask, where do you rate Murali? In top 25 at least?

 

[Johan]

If I may ask, where do you rate Murali? In top 25 at least?

#11 or #12

 

[kyear2]

Ok, Did my research, Statistically the only minnows I can find are 30s India and New Zealand, 2000s Zimbabwe and Bangladesh, 80s Sri Lanka and MAYBE pre Hadlee New Zealand but eh, won't go that far.

and obviously current Ireland and Zim.

While some teams aren't, some units are. I would include our current batting lineup.

 

[capt_Luffy]

While some teams aren't, some units are. I would include our current batting lineup.

I will, again, specify that early 1900 SA had Herbie Taylor, Aubrey Faulkner, Dave Nourse and Gordon White..... That's 2 tiers above current WI.

 

[ankitj]

Here's Boycott talking about Barnes and initially talks about how we should rate players from such time period.

Wise words.

That first point is fake news.

 

[Coronis]

I’m curious @kyear2 do you only rate Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain alongside players of their own time? How about guys who drove in different eras of F1? Do you just make a subjective cutoff for each sport?

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Really think O'Reilly had an argument to be better, so did possibly Lindwall and Lillee before Marshall. But short list.

Lindwall isn’t in that league with O’Reilly or Barnes. Tbh not even Lillee is up there quality wise. Although , Barnes not having proper career due to his egoistic behavior and O’Reilly due to WW2 to go with Lillee’s out of the world level contemporary rating will make him closer than it actually is.

 

[kyear2]

I’m curious @kyear2 do you only rate Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain alongside players of their own time? How about guys who drove in different eras of F1? Do you just make a subjective cutoff for each sport?

I rate Russell and Chamberlain lower than you do. Plus I believe they are more analogous to Bradman and Hammond than to the names mentioned.

None of these guys though played before WW1, and it was legit and in multiple ways a different sport.

And it wasn't arbitrary, rise of more competitive nations, the change of the lbw rule and visual evidence of how they guys batted and bowled.

Barnes played his last test in 1914, none of us saw a delivery a bowled, not a single one, not to mention that the description of his bowling is dubious at best.

When Crowe did his 50 top players ever he divided them into 6 eras, with 5 players form the first two. All I'm saying is that those players, especially those who played exclusively before WW1 should be rated against each other.