Fixing Scandal!!!!!

[BackFootPunch]

What. I disagree with most of this.

For a start, the ACSU appears to be doing something about it - as indicated by the fact that Vincent, McCullum, and at least a couple of county players have given evidence.

Secondly, why would NZ cricket "blow the whistle" on a case that is pending investigation? At the very least, they'd be sued for defamation. At the worst, it would have given Cairns et al enough warning to cover their tracks. The last thing they'd want to do is blow the whole investigation.

Yeah exactly, it's all well and good putting everything in the public domain and tarnishing everyone's name who is involved in some way but, thankfully, we've got court systems to ensure even guilty people get a fair trial.

I can understand why a lot of normal folk who love cricket just want all the information out there so we can move on, it'd probably even be better for the image of the sport if a lengthy court case etc. was avoided, but if we want to eradicate fixing from the game then things have to be done the right way. That might just take a bit longer, unfortunately.

 

[Skyliner]

One particular point I found interesting in the Daily Mail account of McCuIlum's testimony was this:
'McCullum asked the man how he was able to take money back to New Zealand without raising suspicion'.
....it seemed a big leap in McCullums thinking from where 'Mr X' had just suddenly - shockingly - revealed to him the workings of spot fixing and how a lot of people were doing it, to McCullum getting right to the nitty gritty of how this person was getting their dirty money back into NZ.
Was quick-thinking McCullum trying to get more dirt for anti-corruption investigators? Was he looking at Mr X's operation to see how feasible the scheme was? Or what?

 

[Skyliner]

What. I disagree with most of this.

For a start, the ACSU appears to be doing something about it - as indicated by the fact that Vincent, McCullum, and at least a couple of county players have given evidence.

Secondly, why would NZ cricket "blow the whistle" on a case that is pending investigation? At the very least, they'd be sued for defamation. At the worst, it would have given Cairns et al enough warning to cover their tracks. The last thing they'd want to do is blow the whole investigation.

This is not a pending investigation. 2008 was six years ago. This is clear cut testimony from a leading and apparently principled cricketer. It does not require further dithering around for six years going nowhere. The investigating that should occur is Mr X being called to a hearing to answer these charges. This is a cover-up by the ICC and the only option the leaker had was too leak McCullums testimony from 6 years ago. The public have a right to know....no more cover ups. If we have dirty fixers amongst the ranks of current and former players lets get to the bottom of it now, not drag it on for another 6 years. I don't give a damn if every second Indian and Pakistani player is corrupt - lets take care of our own backyard first and foremost and be leaders in combating this cancer.

 

[Dan]

We'll probably have a discussion on this in the mod forum, but for the moment I'm going to remove those posts just to cover all involved.

I'd also suggest that we collectively remain vigilant in terms of naming people, especially this 'Player X'. I don't know the extent of defamation law, nor who can be held liable, but I'd like to recommend that we all proceed pretty cautiously here.

 

[Athlai]

It breaks my heart to say it but I think that we should be removing the captaincy from McCullum. He didn't report this at the time and I don't think thats the person I want leading NZ cricket.

 

[Skyliner]

It breaks my heart to say it but I think that we should be removing the captaincy from McCullum. He didn't report this at the time and I don't think thats the person I want leading NZ cricket.

When did he report it though? With a few days of the first approach from Mr X? Or straight after the second approach? Or last week?
I think more needs to come out for McCullums sake, to clarify this.
I don't think the ICC anti-corruption unit has ever done anything in regards to combating corruption to be honest. They are more reactive than proactive. It's been various newspaper stings, Pakistani judges, leakers and so forth that have brought corruption out into the open. The ICC anti-corruption unit is probably designed to keep corruption under wraps with an endless ongoing secret 'investigation' to insulate the game and it's stake holders from any embarrassment.
Probably why NZC feel so aggrieved: they are being hung out to dry by the NZ parts of the secret interminable 'investigation' being out in the open.
'

 

[Flem274*]

....it seemed a big leap in McCullums thinking from where 'Mr X' had just suddenly - shockingly - revealed to him the workings of spot fixing and how a lot of people were doing it, to McCullum getting right to the nitty gritty of how this person was getting their dirty money back into NZ.

woah, lets be fair here, "how the hell do you get away with sneaking all this money around?" would be pretty high on anyones question list. it could very easily be an innocent "how does this even work?" blurted shock reaction.

It breaks my heart to say it but I think that we should be removing the captaincy from McCullum. He didn't report this at the time and I don't think thats the person I want leading NZ cricket.

i think this is an overreaction until we know everything

 

[Athlai]

The sense I have taken from reports is that McCullum has only recently come to light about these approaches. If he reported them anywhere around the time, even anonymously then I have no issue with it.

 

[Skyliner]

We have Mark Watson on radio sport tonight raving about India, saying we should cut all cricketing ties with them, and suggesting you can't trust anything that happened on their recent tour here.
So the reaction to more revelations surrounding NZ cricketers is to up the anti-India rhetoric. I'm dumbfounded.
I'd say this is less an India problem and more of a human problem. Human beings from many countries being corrupted and operating without integrity.
I would like to think that think that rather than assail India, we should be looking at ourselves. Here in NZ we like to think we have many advantages, that we have the best of clean air, good living, and a Kiwi ethos of fairness and entrenched values. We think of our sportsmen as beyond reproach. This is a big wake up call.

 

[Flem274*]

not surprising mark watson still barks up the wrong tree. made a career out of it.

 

[hendrix]

We have Mark Watson on radio sport tonight raving about India, saying we should cut all cricketing ties with them, and suggesting you can't trust anything that happened on their recent tour here.
So the reaction to more revelations surrounding NZ cricketers is to up the anti-India rhetoric. I'm dumbfounded.
I'd say this is less an India problem and more of a human problem. Human beings from many countries being corrupted and operating without integrity.
I would like to think that think that rather than assail India, we should be looking at ourselves. Here in NZ we like to think we have many advantages, that we have the best of clean air, good living, and a Kiwi ethos of fairness and entrenched values. We think of our sportsmen as beyond reproach. This is a big wake up call.

Yes, good ****ing post and I agree wholeheartedly.

I can't stand the anti-South-Asian rhetoric present in so many of the reports. It's nothing short of racism.

 

[hendrix]

I'm not 100% sure on what I think re:McCullum's delay.

I think if he reported it within a couple of months of the second approach I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. In which case our conclusion must be that the ICC is completely incompetent given it's taken 4+ years and at least one cricketer under Mr F's influence (Vincent) has played and fixed professional cricket matches after the point in which the ICC knew about it.

 

[Mike5181]

The less said about Mark Watson, the better. He talked up his trainer like he was the best in the world after getting knocked out by Ryder in the first round.

 

[Skyliner]

I'm not 100% sure on what I think re:McCullum's delay.

I think if he reported it within a couple of months of the second approach I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. In which case our conclusion must be that the ICC is completely incompetent given it's taken 4+ years and at least one cricketer under Mr F's influence (Vincent) has played and fixed professional cricket matches after the point in which the ICC knew about it.

It's 6 years since Mr X approached Brendon McCullum on 2 occasions and attempted to lure him into match fixing. Since that time Lou Vincent has been a fixer, he approached Mal Loye in 2008, he made an approach to an un-named Sussex player in 2011 but the player rejected it, and now Auckland Aces games from 2012 are under investigation.
But why can Vincent go around making approaches and nothing is done about it? Do these instances get reported and the become part of some on-going 'investigation' with no tangible outcome? It seems utterly absurd.
What does a fixer have to fear from the ICC? You can make approaches to players with impunity, nothing is done about it, and it's only when / if you decide to come clean - i.e. give yourself up and clear your conscience - that some resolution is reached.

 

[BackFootPunch]

Just on the McCullum thing - if he was told that fixing was rife amongst the big boys of world cricket before the IPL, I assume he probably saw some evidence of it first hand. Perhaps he ended up being of the opinion that fixing was everywhere and speaking out just wasn't a viable thing to do. As long as he always said no to any approaches then I don't think you can be overly angry with him for not reporting an approach. The same goes for any player.

I've not got anywhere near top level cricket but even I've heard rumours about the level of fixing that occurs in some areas. For a lot of players who were in those competitions just keeping their noses clean was probably hard enough.

 

[Hurricane]

We'll probably have a discussion on this in the mod forum, but for the moment I'm going to remove those posts just to cover all involved.

I'd also suggest that we collectively remain vigilant in terms of naming people, especially this 'Player X'. I don't know the extent of defamation law, nor who can be held liable, but I'd like to recommend that we all proceed pretty cautiously here.

All good. And sorry for causing a disturbance. Sometimes I forget how many people read this forum since only 20 or so NZ posters actually contribute - but thinking about it we have had people report our posts in times gone past to the cricketers concerned so I should be more careful.

Cheers

 

[Skyliner]

Just on the McCullum thing - if he was told that fixing was rife amongst the big boys of world cricket before the IPL, I assume he probably saw some evidence of it first hand. Perhaps he ended up being of the opinion that fixing was everywhere and speaking out just wasn't a viable thing to do. As long as he always said no to any approaches then I don't think you can be overly angry with him for not reporting an approach. The same goes for any player.

I've not got anywhere near top level cricket but even I've heard rumours about the level of fixing that occurs in some areas. For a lot of players who were in those competitions just keeping their noses clean was probably hard enough.

2.4.2 Failing to disclose to the ACSU (without undue delay) full details of any approaches or invitations received by the Participant to engage in conduct that would amount to a breach of the Anti-Corruption Code.

It's an offence under the ICC Anti Corruption Code to fail to disclose approaches without undue delay. Therefore I can only assume that what has been leaked is McCullum's testimony from 6 years ago.
Please can we not make terrible lame excuses for players not reporting corruption. Corruption destroys cricket, it just guts it, it makes it a farce in the eyes of fans. The worst thing for any sport is to become a farce....a joke devoid of credibility.

 

[Bahnz]

Yes, good ****ing post and I agree wholeheartedly.

I can't stand the anti-South-Asian rhetoric present in so many of the reports. It's nothing short of racism.

Watson has history with this sort of bull****. After the ICC shake-up was announced earlier this year, he went on a giant rant on Radio Sport about how corrupt India is as a country, how badly they treat their women, how the Indian Board was an evil organisation and how the Indian players were crap because they poo their pants everytime they see a blade of grass. It was kinda funny though because he had to spend the rest of the night dealing with irate phone calls from the Indian community.

 

[BackFootPunch]

2.4.2 Failing to disclose to the ACSU (without undue delay) full details of any approaches or invitations received by the Participant to engage in conduct that would amount to a breach of the Anti-Corruption Code.

It's an offence under the ICC Anti Corruption Code to fail to disclose approaches without undue delay. Therefore I can only assume that what has been leaked is McCullum's testimony from 6 years ago.
Please can we not make terrible lame excuses for players not reporting corruption. Corruption destroys cricket, it just guts it, it makes it a farce in the eyes of fans. The worst thing for any sport is to become a farce....a joke devoid of credibility.

Yeah, look, I understand that players are required to report any approach. But why should any one player have to take it upon themselves to blow this thing up, especially if they feel like anyone and everyone else could actually be involved in fixing? The blame here lies with those who've sold out for money and with the system that has allowed them to flourish. If all you take from this is that likes of McCullum and Mal Loye are guilty of not reporting an approach then you're missing the bigger issues by such a huge margin that any impartial observer would think you're fixing things

 

[Teja.]

Not indulging in but not reporting corruption would perhaps be acceptable from a general morality POV if there were no rules or framework in place but considering the fact that ICC repeatedly drums into players that they need to report approaches ASAP and as stated above is part of the ICC code as well, there are really no excuses.

It's obviously nowhere close to being on the same plane as fixing but if he truly was approached and did not report it for a long period of time, (I dunno if this happened, that is unclear right now) I see it a sign of weak character and letting your team mates down. I wouldn't be against punishments for not reporting immediately in the future.