Does Jadeja make your India ATG XI?

[Bolo.]

One thing which I have noticed on this forum is that Asian posters picking 3 fast bowlers and 1 spinner in their side so that their side could win outside Asia. I don’t see SENA posters picking 2 spinners in their ATG side to win in Asia .

SENA are notorious greentop bullies who are incapable of producing a second spinner good enough, or even a thought in their pea-brains beyond 'me bowl fast'.

 

[honestbharani]

SENA are notorious greentop bullies who are incapable of producing a second spinner good enough, or even a thought in their pea-brains beyond 'me bowl fast'.

But that would mean you are gonna suck in 6, and maybe even 8, of the test playing nations.

 

[Xix2565]

SENA are notorious greentop bullies who are incapable of producing a second spinner good enough, or even a thought in their pea-brains beyond 'me bowl fast'.

Given the rankings of players like O'Reilly, Grimmet, Verity, etc., this shouldn't be the case for a lot of people who have some knowledge across eras. Yet it always seems to be that way.

 

[Bolo.]

Not that I was expecting to be responding seriously, but the top S(E)NA quicks do have much better records in Asia than SENA spinners. It's a combination of quicks being less deck reliant, Asian bats typically being quality against spin, and SENA having produced so few quality spinners in modern cricket (when they have a reasonable sample size of games and played quality opposition in Asia).

A good 2nd SENA spinner might outperform a great SENA 3rd quick on an absolute burner, but the quick is typically going to be a better pick across Asia as a whole. Flatter decks are historically more typical.

And if you have an entire lineup of great bowlers, where you are less reliant on one or two to get you a bunch of wickets, they likely are better than great SENA spinners too (not that we have the sample size of great SENA spinners to test this out).

 

[GirthQuake]

Yes, it's largely correct that Asian pitches are, on balance, more balanced and fair to both pace and spin. Which is funny because if subcontinental pitches get even slightly spin dominant everyone loses their minds over bunsens and raging turner.

While SENA pitches can offer next to nothing to spin and push the spinners to peripheral roles and that's quietly accepted as the norm.

 

[Socerer 01]

echoing Sunilz’s sentiments and if you’re only allowed to pick 1 atg xi for your country to represent everywhere then India should be picking for their home conditions where they’ll play 50% of their matches as a priority

that means Ash and Jaddu in easily with an argument to be made for Kumble playing as the third spinner too but Shami’s insane record in Asia is tough to ignore

 

[Bolo.]

Yes, it's largely correct that Asian pitches are, on balance, more balanced and fair to both pace and spin. Which is funny because if subcontinental pitches get even slightly spin dominant everyone loses their minds over bunsens and raging turner.

While SENA pitches can offer next to nothing to spin and push the spinners to peripheral roles and that's quietly accepted as the norm.

I agree with most of this. Love a good burner. If you can't play (or bowl) spin that sounds a bit like a you problem. Butal greentops, brutal turners... all fun as long as the bounce is true. And lottery pitches should be a bit less common than RSA and Bang have been producing recently. I like to see plenty, cos bowling on top is more fun, but not that many. And toss lottery pitches kinda suck.

It's not just a nature of the decks thing though. Quicks are just more effective when unaided by the deck because (cue drumroll)... They are quicker. And swing is massively important. You are better off as a swing bowler in Asia than Aus for example.

 

[Spark]

I mean the main problem with complete bunsens is that it makes some otherwise very ordinary bowlers suddenly extremely dangerous which doesn't feel like it's great. Regardless of whether it's a rank turner, a massive greentop, or a complete road, a pitch becomes a poor pitch when it obviates the difference between the mediocre players, the good players, and the great players. If a bloke like Kuhnemann, who with the best of wishes isn't exactly a world-beater (not even in his state team right now), can have the Indian batsmen in all sorts at times, is that really a reasonable Test of a batsman's skill? And likewise, is success on those pitches that much of an achievement? Likewise if any old fool can show up to a four-lane highway and make a hundred, then how much of an achievement is it really to average 50 on those decks? These are all perfectly fair questions to ask.

That's not for one moment to downgrade Jadeja or Ashwin, who are spectacularly good. But it is a knock on that next rung down, particularly Axar, who I think everyone now agrees is kind of meh as a Test spinner - certainly not in the class of the former two, by a long shot - and yet I'm pretty sure his Test average is still sub-20.

 

[Socerer 01]

I mean the main problem with complete bunsens is that it makes some otherwise very ordinary bowlers suddenly extremely dangerous which doesn't feel like it's great. Regardless of whether it's a rank turner, a massive greentop, or a complete road, a pitch becomes a poor pitch when it obviates the difference between the mediocre players, the good players, and the great players. If a bloke like Kuhnemann, who with the best of wishes isn't exactly a world-beater (not even in his state team right now), can have the Indian batsmen in all sorts at times, is that really a reasonable Test of a batsman's skill? And likewise, is success on those pitches that much of an achievement? Likewise if any old fool can show up to a four-lane highway and make a hundred, then how much of an achievement is it really to average 50 on those decks? These are all perfectly fair questions to ask.

That's not for one moment to downgrade Jadeja or Ashwin, who are spectacularly good. But it is a knock on that next rung down, particularly Axar, who I think everyone now agrees is kind of meh as a Test spinner - certainly not in the class of the former two, by a long shot - and yet I'm pretty sure his Test average is still sub-20.

Kuhnemann did that in 1 innings though, he was pretty meh the rest of the time he bowled. it does have something to do with the bunsen he bowled on but its also a sign of how weak the Indian batting was against spin at that time, this same batting unit has looked lolworthy against Rashid and Moeen Ali previously

 

[Kenneth Viljoen]

Yes, it's largely correct that Asian pitches are, on balance, more balanced and fair to both pace and spin. Which is funny because if subcontinental pitches get even slightly spin dominant everyone loses their minds over bunsens and raging turner.

While SENA pitches can offer next to nothing to spin and push the spinners to peripheral roles and that's quietly accepted as the norm.

SENA have produced better spinners than Asia has throughout Test and FC history..Spin bowling was developed in this region first. Don't let recency bias make you believe SENA pitches have never help produce great spinners.

 

[GirthQuake]

That's not for one moment to downgrade Jadeja or Ashwin, who are spectacularly good. But it is a knock on that next rung down, particularly Axar, who I think everyone now agrees is kind of meh as a Test spinner - certainly not in the class of the former two, by a long shot - and yet I'm pretty sure his Test average is still sub-20.

Axar may not Ashwin/Jadeja good but he's far from meh. His domestic record is enough to certify his quality. Often but not always, Indian spinners have a worse domestic FC record than test, including Ashwin. Not being as good as the above two hardly makes Axar meh.

 

[Spark]

Kuhnemann did that in 1 innings though, he was pretty meh the rest of the time he bowled. it does have something to do with the bunsen he bowled on but its also a sign of how weak the Indian batting was against spin at that time, this same batting unit has looked lolworthy against Rashid and Moeen Ali previously

Oh yeah, and I was one who came out of that series thinking "mmm Murphy is the future but Kuhnemann probably isn't". He wasn't bad, just kind of ordinary, but at times he was ragging it absolutely miles. It's just an example though; I don't think anyone seriously disputes that extreme pitches can and do get asterisked as tests of skill.

This absolutely should apply to greentops too. Regulars to the Shield thread this season will know that a whole bunch of us have complained that the overly green pitches have made some frankly limited bowlers look like absolute gods because anyone who can bowl it vaguely straight and stand the seam up is taking poles for fun.

 

[GirthQuake]

SENA have produced better spinners than Asia has throughout Test and FC history..Spin bowling was developed in this region first. Don't let recency bias make you believe SENA pitches have never help produce great spinners.

Objectively wrong.

 

[Socerer 01]

Axar may not Ashwin/Jadeja good but he's far from meh. His domestic record is enough to certify his quality. Often but not always, Indian spinners have a worse domestic FC record than test, including Ashwin. Not being as good as the above two hardly makes Axar meh.

he’s getting an unfair rep because he doesnt have the ***y variations too. Jadeja suffered from the same problem for years until he just took too many wickets for people to ignore him

 

[Spark]

Axar may not Ashwin/Jadeja good but he's far from meh. His domestic record is enough to certify his quality. Often but not always, Indian spinners have a worse domestic FC record than test, including Ashwin. Not being as good as the above two hardly makes Axar meh.

Nah I personally disagree. Having watched most of his career I really feel he's very middling as a Test bowler. Comparing him to Jadeja who is otherwise a somewhat similar bowler is just night and day in terms of variation of flight, guile and pace.

I said this when he was taking wickets for fun too. I just don't see that much quality there.

 

[Socerer 01]

SENA have produced better spinners than Asia has throughout Test and FC history..Spin bowling was developed in this region first. Don't let recency bias make you believe SENA pitches have never help produce great spinners.

having a big headstart on cricket development may have helped with that

 

[GirthQuake]

Nah I personally disagree. Having watched most of his career I really feel he's very middling as a Test bowler. Comparing him to Jadeja who is otherwise a somewhat similar bowler is just night and day in terms of variation of flight, guile and pace.

I said this when he was taking wickets for fun too. I just don't see that much quality there.

In that case you should have the humility to accept there'd be players whom you won't rate and yet they have certain quality that helps them succeed at this level.

Axar is nothing like Jadeja apart from being a SLA. His domestic FC record is as good as it gets on mostly flat decks against some of the best players of spin. He's had a forgettable series against AUS but that's hardly enough to write someone off dismissively as meh.

 

[Spark]

Nah I personally disagree. Having watched most of his career I really feel he's very middling as a Test bowler. Comparing him to Jadeja who is otherwise a somewhat similar bowler is just night and day in terms of variation of flight, guile and pace.

I said this when he was taking wickets for fun too. I just don't see that much quality there.

On this, I remember during the previous India-England series, I pointed out that all he was doing was literally bowling the same ball every ball and it was behaving essentially randomly upon pitching. Some guy tried to argue with me that no, there was all these variations in pace and flight going on, like Ashwin.

Then a speedgun of Axar's pace through each over came up on the broadcast and there was like a 2km/h difference between his highest and lowest speeds (whereas Ashwin had a 10km/h+ variation in pace). It was pretty funny tstl.

 

[GirthQuake]

he’s getting an unfair rep because he doesnt have the ***y variations too. Jadeja suffered from the same problem for years until he just took too many wickets for people to ignore him

Imagine thinking bowling at a constant drone like pace with no variations will have you end up with Axar like record in Indian FC cricket. Some of these randoms on this forum would watch a few balls here and there and develop a theory like it were a revelation.

 

[Kenneth Viljoen]

having a big headstart on cricket development may have helped with that

Exactly ..Spin bowling was bowled in SENA before half of the subcontinent were even countries ..lecturing about spin to the inventors of the artform is a bit rich.