Do you think Murali was a chucker?

[Ruckus]

yeah I def remember there being a period where he was accused of throwing etc. but I'm not sure if anything official eventuated out of it.

 

[smash84]

yeah I think Lee was reported and reportedly cleared

 

[Top_Cat]

Lee was tested and, like Shoaib, was found to hyper-extend. I believe his level of flexion was below McGrath's.

 

[Son Of Coco]

I'm assuming this quote from an article in the Sydney Morning Herald is wrong...

WHY 15 DEGREES? Expert advice recommended 15 degrees would accommodate any straightening that was as a result of the biomechanical forces, such as the hyperextension of a bowler's elbow joint. These experts have demonstrated this is also consistent with the point at which any straightening is likely to become noticeable to the naked eye.

Given it's from a newspaper I'm assuming it very well could be, as everyone on here has said hyperextension isn't taken into consideration. This is the whole article:

Bending the rules on chucking - Cricket - www.smh.com.au

 

[Uppercut]

Love how the word "expert" can be used as an authority in any context. They could have been literally anyone.

 

[Ruckus]

Well I'm starting to think the whole 15 degrees "is also consistent with the point at which any straightening is likely to become noticeable to the naked eye" thing is just bull****. Because if they measured Murali's doosra at 14 degrees, then isn't that basically suggesting there is no visible straightening? Whether you think he chucks or not, I don't think there's much to debate about there being at least some straightening...Same goes with people like McGrath. 12 degrees, therefore it shouldn't be noticeable? Clearly has a visible elbow flick.

 

[uvelocity]

info hear

CoachesInfo.com - information and education for coaches - The Biomechanics of Illegal Bowling Actions in Cricket
Pappus' plane - cricket stats: What is a chuck?

in regard to what I wrote earlier about perhaps the science being faulty (from first linky)

the throwing group could not be differentiated from the other bowling groups by elbow extension angle. This suggests that either (i) the bowlers in the throwing group were not generally throwing and the visual effect of jerkiness was an illusion, or that (ii) a throwing-type action is not solely determined by elbow extension angle. If the latter was correct, then another biomechanical concept is needed to differentiate a throw from a bowl.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Well I'm starting to think the whole 15 degrees "is also consistent with the point at which any straightening is likely to become noticeable to the naked eye" thing is just bull****. Because if they measured Murali's doosra at 14 degrees, then isn't that basically suggesting there is no visible straightening? Whether you think he chucks or not, I don't think there's much to debate about there being at least some straightening...Same goes with people like McGrath. 12 degrees, therefore it shouldn't be noticeable? Clearly has a visible elbow flick.

I'll have to watch more videos of him bowling, have never noticed. Looks like the perfect action to me.

 

[social]

When Murali's doosra was first tested under lab conditions, the AVERAGE amount of flex was 14 degrees

Not much of a stretch to assume that he chucked the odd one before undergoing remedial action

 

[Top_Cat]

Well I'm starting to think the whole 15 degrees "is also consistent with the point at which any straightening is likely to become noticeable to the naked eye" thing is just bull****. Because if they measured Murali's doosra at 14 degrees, then isn't that basically suggesting there is no visible straightening? Whether you think he chucks or not, I don't think there's much to debate about there being at least some straightening...Same goes with people like McGrath. 12 degrees, therefore it shouldn't be noticeable? Clearly has a visible elbow flick.

Well, they had to set it somewhere. There was zero evidence base for what constituted a chuck, let alone how far someone should be allowed to flex at he elbow so someone had to make it up. In the absence of any empirical info, a group of people in cricket agreed on 15 degrees. It's not perfect, it's not without holes in the logic but it's there and, to date, no-one's developed a better system or given enough reason to suggest it should be changed.

 

[Ruckus]

I'll have to watch more videos of him bowling, have never noticed. Looks like the perfect action to me.

can see it all throughout this video Glenn McGrath 8/38 vs England - EXTENDED! - YouTube. It's not much, but its definitely there and observable with the naked eye. Might have also been a bit more obvious in the young McGrath when he had his pace up.

When Murali's doosra was first tested under lab conditions, the AVERAGE amount of flex was 14 degrees

Not much of a stretch to assume that he chucked the odd one before undergoing remedial action

Well in that article posted above, it says the doosra was measured "up to 14 degrees".

 

[uvelocity]

I'm also yet to see anywhere where McGrath was officially mentioned.

ICC said "all bowlers straighten their arm to a certain degree*"

3rd parties have brought McGrath into it.

*except sarwan as previously mentioned

 

[Ruckus]

Well, they had to set it somewhere. There was zero evidence base for what constituted a chuck, let alone how far someone should be allowed to flex at he elbow so someone had to make it up. In the absence of any empirical info, a group of people in cricket agreed on 15 degrees. It's not perfect, it's not without holes in the logic but it's there and, to date, no-one's developed a better system or given enough reason to suggest it should be changed.

Oh well I thought it was based off biometric studies or something which ascertained what constitutes the degree of bend required to be visible to the human eye. If it was just a bunch of random cricket people making it up, then yeah that obviously explains why it has no real basis in reality. Doesn't do much to dispel the allegations raised in that article that authorities were pressured into using that specific number either tbh.

 

[Son Of Coco]

can see it all throughout this video Glenn McGrath 8/38 vs England - EXTENDED! - YouTube. It's not much, but its definitely there and observable with the naked eye. Might have also been a bit more obvious in the young McGrath when he had his pace up.



Well in that article posted above, it says the doosra was measured "up to 14 degrees".

I've watched that video before and still never noticed. Will watch it again...I wasn't aware the 'EXTENDED' referred to his elbow

 

[Ruckus]

Started watching it, and can't stop. **** McGrath was an awesome bowler.

 

[Migara]

Care to share your top secret sources no-one else has ever seen on this matter? A bent arm can appear bent or straight from different perspectives, but a straight arm is straight however you look at it.

Ha ha, so you have those super duper eyes to detect a 15 degree extension of a elbow? Do you think the straight arm you describe is in fact straight? The truth is for from it. The seemingly straight arms are bent too.

And my secret sources are in cricinfo archives. Not arsed to dig it.

 

[Migara]

Well I'm starting to think the whole 15 degrees "is also consistent with the point at which any straightening is likely to become noticeable to the naked eye" thing is just bull****. Because if they measured Murali's doosra at 14 degrees, then isn't that basically suggesting there is no visible straightening? Whether you think he chucks or not, I don't think there's much to debate about there being at least some straightening...Same goes with people like McGrath. 12 degrees, therefore it shouldn't be noticeable? Clearly has a visible elbow flick.

Murali extends the elbow while McGrath flicks it eh?

Why don't you accept the bleeding truth? McGrath and Murali are around same level with elbow extension.

 

[Viscount Tom]

Don't think he's denying the visibility of the extension Migara sounds more like he's us terming it differently.

 

[Migara]

I'm also yet to see anywhere where McGrath was officially mentioned.

ICC said "all bowlers straighten their arm to a certain degree*"

3rd parties have brought McGrath into it.

*except sarwan as previously mentioned

Just check cricinfo. Both McGrath and Pollock are mentioned.

The current law states that there should be no straightening or partial straightening of the bowling arm during delivery, and in-depth research has revealed that even bowlers like Glenn McGrath and Shaun Pollock, usually considered examplars of the classical action, occasionally go over the prescribed tolerance limit, bending their arms by as much as 12 degrees.

 

[Ruckus]

Don't think he's denying the visibility of the extension Migara sounds more like he's us terming it differently.

yep. I just called it a 'flick' because that's how it appears to me for fast bowlers. That being said, just because both involve extension doesn't automatically mean they are at the same 'level'. I don't give a rats about this angle stuff (it's all so contentious anyway), in terms of just watching them bowl I absolutely don't think McGrath chucks it. I do think Murali does (mainly for certain deliveries anyway). And to show I'm not just being biased here, I'd also say I think someone like Lee gets awfully close sometimes.