Dhoni v Gilchrist

[Arachnodouche]

Dhonis last few years were truly embarrassing. The fact that he played in a way that allowed him to escape with good looking stats despite losing games for the team with shocking regularity is an indictment on odi stats as a concept (spark to jizz). I find it hard to completely ignore this phase of his career because there were several innings I'd classify from my armchair as purely selfish endeavours which protected his own stats while putting his team in a terrible position. It sucks because it's hard to prove how bad he truly was those later years in hindsight because fanboys can easily go "B b b b but he averaged 47 with 88 Sr".

Legitimately much worse to watch than a great batsman like ponting or Tendulkar declining with age.

Don't think it was so much protecting stats as it was him thinking no end of his ability to "take the game deep". He'd done it on more than a few occasions in his prime, the media found a way of marketing this coolness as a product, and he bought into it wholesale even as his skills diminished. He still believes in it by all accounts even as he runs out of breath after completing a quick single.

 

[duffer]

I want it to be Dhoni. I really, really do. But it's Gilchrist

 

[_00_deathscar]

Fairly certain that if you translate over era's bevan's sr is very comparable to dhoni's. Bevan could hit boundaries and clear the fench with ease, you don't make a 150 sr 180 against an attack of murali, wasim, kumble and vaas if you can't clear the fence, it was more that his era required him to rely on 1's and 2's with the occasional boundary. Take bevan in a modern context and he would have no trouble adapting.

Bevan was Keith Miller?

 

[honestbharani]

Ok my bad then, thought it was a dhoni>bevan type thing. Side note, what would an odi AT11 look like with both bevan and dhoni look like, I've never considered that kind of lineup because Kohli, viv, ab at 3 4 5 has always been too alluring.

The one reason I can think of breaking them up will be to get a leftie in there somewhere. But in those cases, I feel the case of Hussey seems more compelling as #6 than Bevan, even though I feel Bevan was the better ODI batsman. Huss just has more gears and is a more useful 5th bowler IMO in an ATG set up.

 

[honestbharani]

Dhoni was a thoroughly average test captain wasn't he?

He was a defensive captain and had bad days towards the end of his stint but all in all, I would rate him as a good test captain. Not great, mind you, but definitely done enough to be in the good category.

 

[The Sean]

The one reason I can think of breaking them up will be to get a leftie in there somewhere. But in those cases, I feel the case of Hussey seems more compelling as #6 than Bevan, even though I feel Bevan was the better ODI batsman. Huss just has more gears and is a more useful 5th bowler IMO in an ATG set up.

Are we thinking of the same Mike Hussey? The one I'm thinking of played 185 ODIs and took a total of two wickets.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Pre-Bevan, sure, but after that #5 and #6 increasingly became specialist spots with unique and specific demands, not just "5th or 6th best batsman".

To some extent. But now more than ever the best batsman will tend to bat at the top. Different roles are a thing of course but you give your best players the chance to have the longest time to bat, moreso in T20s but still in 50 over cricket as well. Your Joss Buttlers are relatively uncommon exceptions. You're very rarely going to see a number 6 in a team that's better than the openers.

 

[anil1405]

Ok my bad then, thought it was a dhoni>bevan type thing. Side note, what would an odi AT11 look like with both bevan and dhoni look like, I've never considered that kind of lineup because Kohli, viv, ab at 3 4 5 has always been too alluring.

Picking an ATG ODI side is wayyyyyy more tricky than picking a test side.

All of Kohli, Viv, ABdV, Bevan/Hussey and Dhoni cannot make the cut as that would leave the team a bowler short.

 

[TheJediBrah]

The one reason I can think of breaking them up will be to get a leftie in there somewhere. But in those cases, I feel the case of Hussey seems more compelling as #6 than Bevan, even though I feel Bevan was the better ODI batsman. Huss just has more gears and is a more useful 5th bowler IMO in an ATG set up.

I was getting more and more confused as I read this before remembering that Hussey played for CSK

 

[honestbharani]

Are we thinking of the same Mike Hussey? The one I'm thinking of played 185 ODIs and took a total of two wickets.

Yeah but I am looking at type of bowling tbh. And ER for a few quiet overs. If you are looking at Bevan/Hussey to pick you wickets, you are in trouble anyways.

 

[honestbharani]

I was getting more and more confused as I read this before remembering that Hussey played for CSK

Try doing what Daemon did and search my posts on Hussey in 2007 before CSK even existed.

I would also suggest try to buy some sense and perspective but I feel that ship has long sailed when it comes to your posts.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Try doing what Daemon did and search my posts on Hussey in 2007 before CSK even existed.

I would also suggest try to buy some sense and perspective but I feel that ship has long sailed when it comes to your posts.

and my face

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Spark, thank you for the facts.

 

[honestbharani]

Picking an ATG ODI side is wayyyyyy more tricky than picking a test side.

All of Kohli, Viv, ABdV, Bevan/Hussey and Dhoni cannot make the cut as that would leave the team a bowler short.

Well, if you open Sachin and Sanath, you do free up space to play a pure batsman at 7. Viv can bowl and so can Bevan/Hussey. So you get 2 part time bowlers + a proper 5th bowler in that case.

 

[stephen]

Picking an ATG ODI side is wayyyyyy more tricky than picking a test side.

All of Kohli, Viv, ABdV, Bevan/Hussey and Dhoni cannot make the cut as that would leave the team a bowler short.

You can pick them all and rely on Viv and Tendulkar to make up the 10 overs. And honestly, if it was a weird draft format where you got to pick the side first, picking

Tendulkar
Gilchrist
Viv *
Kohli
De Villiers
Bevan
Dhoni+
Wasim
Warne/ Saqlain/ Murali
Garner
McGrath

Might be a really good selection, because it would force your opponent to miss out on all of the counter balancing picks. They'd be forced into something like:

Watson
Lara
Ponting *
Sangakkara
Symonds
Hussey
Buttler +
Starc
Hadlee
Warne/ Murali/ Saqlain
Ambrose

Which would be a fantastic side, but would have an inferior keeper and inferior chasers/ finishers. The second side would be strengthened significantly by including Gilchrist and Bevan over Lara and Buttler.

 

[subshakerz]

I think most of this thread is ignoring the fact that Dhoni in test cricket was really nothing special at all, as captain, keeper and batsman. More of handy cricketer overall.

Nobody here is arguing that Gilchrist in both test and ODIs wasnt worldclass as an allround wicketkeeper batsman. And the fact that he wasnt a one format great is enough to rank him ahead of Dhoni.

 

[honestbharani]

I think most of this thread is ignoring the fact that Dhoni in test cricket was really nothing special at all, as captain

Led India to the Test Mace for the first time, but sure, keep spewing.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Well, if you open Sachin and Sanath, you do free up space to play a pure batsman at 7. Viv can bowl and so can Bevan/Hussey. So you get 2 part time bowlers + a proper 5th bowler in that case.

AB would be a better ODI bowler than Hussey.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Led India to the Test Mace for the first time, but sure, keep spewing.

The Test Mace is only valuable when it is won in a final.

 

[honestbharani]

AB would be a better ODI bowler than Hussey.

I dont recall him being that bad but Bevan also won test matches with the ball. Its just that I think you want a controlling part timer in that role, not a risky wicket taker.