Debate thread for 2024 Ranking of batsmen poll

[PlayerComparisons]

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This alone should have gotten him a spot in the top 35 imo

There’s a strong case for Crowe being in the top 30 as well ahead of guys like G Smith and Root if we’re just rating on quality. The only issue with Crowe is longevity/career value.

 

[Line and Length]

There’s a strong case for Crowe being in the top 30 as well ahead of guys like G Smith and Root if we’re just rating on quality. The only issue with Crowe is longevity/career value.

How do we judge "quality"? If it's based on averages then Barrington is underrated. If it's based on aesthetics then Gower should be on the list and Barrington would be overrated.

One of the deficits I see is the lack of players whose careers fell exclusively between the wars. I know I've had my say regarding Paynter but a strong case could be made for McCabe and a few others.

 

[Bolo.]

How do we judge "quality"? If it's based on averages then Barrington is underrated. If it's based on aesthetics then Gower should be on the list and Barrington would be overrated.

One of the deficits I see is the lack of players whose careers fell exclusively between the wars. I know I've had my say regarding Paynter but a strong case could be made for McCabe and a few others.

Exclusively between wars means (for almost everyone) longevity problems. It's a pretty soft era. And you aren't looking at the best from the era, who also played either side of a war.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

It's a pretty soft era.

It is probably the greatest era for batting, and definitely the greatest era for spin bowling.

 

[Line and Length]

Exclusively between wars means (for almost everyone) longevity problems. It's a pretty soft era. And you aren't looking at the best from the era, who also played either side of a war.

I've already considered and voted for Bradman, Hobbs, Hutton, Headley, Compton et al who played either side of a war. Exclusively between the wars covers 2 decades - enough for a player to have a significant career.

 

[Bolo.]

It is probably the greatest era for batting, and definitely the greatest era for spin bowling.

You are mostly just talking about 2 teams here. 6 played, and 4 were somewhere from weak to rubbish. Good spinners, but it's only a few guys across a long period of time. Good era for batting, but that's adding to my point.

I've already considered and voted for Bradman, Hobbs, Hutton, Headley, Compton et al who played either side of a war. Exclusively between the wars covers 2 decades - enough for a player to have a significant career.

It's enough to have a full career, but it really requires some luck in timing to not have a career truncated. Even an expected 10 Year career would likely lose some time to a war. It happened to the guys you are advocating for. You have to have a very strong reason to pick these single digit careers ahead of the median 15 years (or whatever the exact number is on this list).

 

[Coronis]

Honestly surprised Paynter was selected when he was. Bloke didn’t even have a county season averaging 40 until 1934.

 

[Line and Length]

It's enough to have a full career, but it really requires some luck in timing to not have a career truncated. Even an expected 10 Year career would likely lose some time to a war. It happened to the guys you are advocating for. You have to have a very strong reason to pick these single digit careers ahead of the median 15 years (or whatever the exact number is on this list).

There are numerous players with 20 or more Tests who played exclusively between the wars and who wouldn't be out of place in our list.

Ponsford 29 Tests, 2122 @ 48.27; McCabe 39 Tests, 2748 @ 48.21; Jardine 22 Tests, 1296 @ 48.00; Hendren 51 Tests 3525 @ 47.63;
Leyland 41 Tests, 2764 @ 46.06; Ryder 20 Tests, 1394 @ 51.63; Woodfull 35 Tests, 2300 @ 46.00 (and, of course, Paynter).

Sutcliffe was the only player who is in this category who was voted into our batting list. Yet 3 bowlers (Verity, Grimmett and Larwood) made our bowlers list. Tate 39 Tests, 155w @ 26.16 was the only other bowler who could easily have qualified.

I refrained from adding players such as Duleepsinhji who had more than "single digit careers" but didn't make the 20 Test mark.

 

[Line and Length]

Honestly surprised Paynter was selected when he was. Bloke didn’t even have a county season averaging 40 until 1934.

But an inspired selection.

I can't ignore the fact that Paynter, in the 7 Tests he played against the Don, had a superior average to him. Even if I remove the 3 not outs you mentioned in post 693, he still averages better than Bradman in those Tests.
Being an attacking left-hander and an excellent fielder makes him worthy of consideration in our extended list of 75.

 

[Bolo.]

There are numerous players with 20 or more Tests who played exclusively between the wars and who wouldn't be out of place in our list.

Ponsford 29 Tests, 2122 @ 48.27; McCabe 39 Tests, 2748 @ 48.21; Jardine 22 Tests, 1296 @ 48.00; Hendren 51 Tests 3525 @ 47.63;
Leyland 41 Tests, 2764 @ 46.06; Ryder 20 Tests, 1394 @ 51.63; Woodfull 35 Tests, 2300 @ 46.00 (and, of course, Paynter).

Sutcliffe was the only player who is in this category who was voted into our batting list. Yet 3 bowlers (Verity, Grimmett and Larwood) made our bowlers list. Tate 39 Tests, 155w @ 26.16 was the only other bowler who could easily have qualified.

I refrained from adding players such as Duleepsinhji who had more than "single digit careers" but didn't make the 20 Test mark.

Plenty of guys with averages like these from other eras that aren't cracking the list. Some with a lot more tests and in stronger bowling eras.

Would you pick any of these guys to knock Mitchell out of 50th? No way for me. His career spanned 20 years, lost most of his peak to WWII, played stronger opposition than them etc.

Bowlers are a different case. We didn't vote under the same test performances only rules (squints suspiciously at Larwood). We don't require the same longevity from bowlers, and there is a lot less competition.

 

[Line and Length]

Plenty of guys with averages like these from other eras that aren't cracking the list. Some with a lot more tests and in stronger bowling eras.

Would you pick any of these guys to knock Mitchell out of 50th? No way for me. His career spanned 20 years, lost most of his peak to WWII, played stronger opposition than them etc.

Bowlers are a different case. We didn't vote under the same test performances only rules (squints suspiciously at Larwood). We don't require the same longevity from bowlers, and there is a lot less competition.

... and plenty of these guys getting votes each round (Laxman, Clarke, Pietersen. Jayawardene etc) bit only McCabe getting a very recent mention.

Mitchell is 4 or 5 spots too low. There are others more expendable IMO.

I thought we were judging on Tests only in both polls. There is a lot less competition because sides have more batsmen than bowlers in their line-ups.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Being an attacking left-hander and an excellent fielder makes him worthy of consideration in our extended list of 75.

Surely fielding should play no part in ranking batting?

It is a shame that Martin Donnelly (incidentally also an attacking leftie and excellent fielder) played so few tests as he would be a worthy vote.

 

[Line and Length]

Surely fielding should play no part in ranking batting?

It is a shame that Martin Donnelly (incidentally also an attacking leftie and excellent fielder) played so few tests as he would be a worthy vote.

Fair comment. Perhaps I should have written:
Being an attacking left hander who averaged almost 60 in Tests, including an 80+ average v Australia, makes him worthy of consideration in our extended list of 75.

 

[Bolo.]

... and plenty of these guys getting votes each round (Laxman, Clarke, Pietersen. Jayawardene etc) bit only McCabe getting a very recent mention.

Mitchell is 4 or 5 spots too low. There are others more expendable IMO.

I thought we were judging on Tests only in both polls. There is a lot less competition because sides have more batsmen than bowlers in their line-ups.

These guys haven't made the list. You are probably right about the likelihood of them beating possibly better players. People default to players they know better.

The criteria for selection did get refined a bit over the Barry question to test performances only after the bowling was done. In past test polls, he's placed as people have interpreted things a bit more broadly. I think people may have been interpreting Larwood a bit more broadly and looking at his perceived quality, not just his test record. You have to think his test average of 28ish is ridiculously good to overlook the fact that he only has 70 something wickets.

 

[Line and Length]

We've resumed voting to expand our intended list from 50 to 75.

Although the number of voters were down, the range of players nominated was considerable. Only one player from our 2022 Top 50 has yet to gain a spot but he is from an 'out of favour era'. To keep some sort of balance, I'll continue nominating players from this era in the hope that a few might make it into our final 75.

Of the latest additions, I feel Jayawardene is the most underrated.

 

[capt_Luffy]

We've resumed voting to expand our intended list from 50 to 75.

Although the number of voters were down, the range of players nominated was considerable. Only one player from our 2022 Top 50 has yet to gain a spot but he is from an 'out of favour era'. To keep some sort of balance, I'll continue nominating players from this era in the hope that a few might make it into our final 75.

Of the latest additions, I feel Jayawardene is the most underrated.

Should we continue the bowlers poll after this for a few rounds as well?? Pollock, Chandra, Bedi, Tyson, Herath, etc. many ATVGs bowlers also missed out; especially spinners. Given there were 70 bowlers and 50 batsmen in the previous poll (excluding 3 bowlers who didn't fit either category previously); and especially how many spinners missed out, I think we should atleast extend it to the previous 70.

 

[Line and Length]

Should we continue the bowlers poll after this for a few rounds as well?? Pollock, Chandra, Bedi, Tyson, Herath, etc. many ATVGs bowlers also missed out; especially spinners. Given there were 70 bowlers and 50 batsmen in the previous poll (excluding 3 bowlers who didn't fit either category previously); and especially how many spinners missed out, I think we should atleast extend it to the previous 70.

Definitely food for thought. Will canvass members after this current poll.

 

[Line and Length]

I've decided, after considering the large drop in participation, to end our intended Top 75 list of batsmen at 60.

Who were the top contenders for a list of 75?
For an obvious start I would nominate Mohammad Yousuf who, in 90 Tests, averaged 52.29 while Bill Ponsford, Charlie MaCartney and Vijay Hazare received multiple nominations without making the 60.

From the early history of Tests, I expected nominations for W.G.Grace but 22 Tests and an average in the low 30s may have counted against him. Similarly Stanley Jackson with just 20 Tests but an average of 48.79 was never nominated. On the other hand, Ranjitsinhji received a number of nominations despite playing only 15 Tests with an average in the mid 40s.

From between the wars I've mentioned and nominated Eddie Paynter without success. Others worthy of nominations from this era include Patsy Hendren, Maurice Leyland and Bill Woodfull. Unlike Paynter (with just 20 Tests), this trio played 51, 41 and 35 Tests respectively while averaging over 45.

Of the Post War batsmen, two players that received a few nominations without making the list stand out. Alastair Cook's 12,472 runs at 45.35 is an obvious omission while Aravinda de Silva received early nominations for a solid 90+ Test career.

 

[Coronis]

lol @ Jayawardene over MoYo tbh.

MoYo away: 55 matches 4174 @ 44.88 11 tons
MoYo outside Asia: 37 matches 3054 @ 45.58 8 tons

Jayawardene away: 61 matches 4317 @ 41.50 10 tons
Jayawardene outside Asia: 40 matches 2415 @ 34.50 6 tons

 

[BazBall21]

lol @ Jayawardene over MoYo tbh.

MoYo away: 55 matches 4174 @ 44.88 11 tons
MoYo outside Asia: 37 matches 3054 @ 45.58 8 tons

Jayawardene away: 61 matches 4317 @ 41.50 10 tons
Jayawardene outside Asia: 40 matches 2415 @ 34.50 6 tons

Yousuf was better outside the subcontinent but Mahela was a lot better against spin so it's debatable. I wouldn't have included him in this though.