Dale Steyn vs Viv Richards

[BazBall21]

Lol at Sehwag at 12 and Johnson at 29.

I've seen plenty worse lists tbf but there's still some baffling aspects.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Steyn had problems in Eng and was a hit and miss in Aus. Viv was brilliant everywhere. That’s how simple it is

 

[ma1978]

If Bradman played for 1930’s New Zealand rather than 1930’s Australia would he still be the GOAT?

Bradman isn’t just the GOAT cricketer. He is the GOAT athlete. No one has been so statistically so far ahead of their peers in any sport.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Plus Viv was brilliant in one of the most bowler friendly eras. Steyn being great in a batter friendly era is nullified to some extent by his performances in Aus and Eno, where wickets had really flattened. Plus the juicy wickets he got at home. Viv’s intangibles, SR, perfect record across conditions and innings make this easy.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

And Richards easily better than Lara. Lara‘s home away record and express pace problem always keeps me from listing him in the absolute top tier of ATGs. Still my favourite batter to watch

 

[Xix2565]

Anyone subscribing to Scyld Berry's opinions needs a checkup immediately.

 

[Pup Clarke]

Hahahaha McGrath the 19th best cricketer of the last 40 years? That's a howler

 

[OverratedSanity]

Plus Viv was brilliant in one of the most bowler friendly eras. Steyn being great in a batter friendly era is nullified to some extent by his performances in Aus and Eno, where wickets had really flattened. Plus the juicy wickets he got at home. Viv’s intangibles, SR, perfect record across conditions and innings make this easy.

Why are you portraying Viv's performances in Australia as so much better than Steyn? Steyn bowled two series clinching spells when the match was in the balance on consecutive tours.

 

[kyear2]

I agree with some of this - a few additions to the T1 ATGs list (for me): [All post war references]

Openers:

Gavaskar

MO:

Ponting

AR:

Miller

Pace Bowlers:

Akram
Lillee

Spinners:

Warne
Murali

T1 ATG is a very short list.

I already referenced most of these names in the comments after, and no objection with the others.
Still think the original 15 are just a little separated from the rest.

 

[number11]

I already referenced most of these names in the comments after, and no objection with the others.
Still think the original 15 are just a little separated from the rest.

It is certainly a very select list.

Who would be the last English player to be a T1 ATG if not Beefy?

 

[Adorable Asshole]

It is certainly a very select list.

Who would be the last English player to be a T1 ATG if not Beefy?

Hutton

 

[BazBall21]

The runs-per-wicket in Steyn's tests in England and Australia was 41. For Ambrose's tests it was 30. Staggering difference.

 

[number11]

Hutton

So very long ago.

More recent C21 cricketers to be T1 ATGs are limited to Smith and Steyn.

Any other candidates?

 

[PlayerComparisons]

So very long ago.

More recent C21 cricketers to be T1 ATGs are limited to Smith and Steyn.

Any other candidates?

Jadeja?

 

[kyear2]

You overstate how much influence any one cricketer can have on match results. Would've thought a Lara fan would understand this considering how little his team won once Ambrose and Walsh retired.

1. That kind of proves my point though, re Ambrose.

2. Lara also had a hand in winning matches, but yes, bowlers are more impactful when it comes to said winning. Hence my original comment re Marshall and McGrath.

3. And I'm not saying it takes away from your greatness, but if you're able to add winning to it, how doesn't that enhance your legacy?

 

[kyear2]

It is certainly a very select list.

Who would be the last English player to be a T1 ATG if not Beefy?

But isn't that the entire point?

Why does there have to be an English player?

To be that level of ATG, as some others have mentioned there are some qualifications, these are mine.

Have to be in contention for an ATG XI

Separated themselves within their era

Have to rank among the greats in at least one discipline / capacity

 

[number11]

Completely agree.
It should be a select list.
Would be interesting to tally T1 ATGs by country.
WI and Aus would have the most.

 

[kyear2]

The runs-per-wicket in Steyn's tests in England and Australia was 41. For Ambrose's tests it was 30. Staggering difference.

This kind of stat is somewhat over used and can be misleading.

Yes it can be representative of conditions, it's also influenced by the bowlers themselves. Ambrose could have simply been more adaptive and bowled the right line and length to succeed in England.

Please note that I still rate Steyn slightly higher than Sir Curtly.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Yeah don’t like these RPW stats. Way too dependent on how the rest of your team performs

 

[BazBall21]

This kind of stat is somewhat over used and can be misleading.

Yes it can be representative of conditions, it's also influenced by the bowlers themselves. Ambrose could have simply been more adaptive and bowled the right line and length to succeed in England.

Please note that I still rate Steyn slightly higher than Sir Curtly.

I agree that it's a flawed measure and wouldn't use it if the gap was say five runs. But when the gap is that big, Steyn clearly had the tougher conditions in those places. I would have Curtly Ambrose over any bowler who ever lived in Australia. But will take Steyn in Asia.