Dale Steyn vs Viv Richards

[Adorable Asshole]

You're wrong.
Viv's peer review and expert analysis rightfully place him #1. I think the Telegraph even had a listing to this effect. I don't generally read the rag, but they were right here.

If we are going by peer review then Wasim and Lillee greater than McGrath and Marshall but that's not the case.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

And Steve Smith and Jadeja

Hell no

 

[number11]

If we are going by peer review then Wasim and Lillee greater than McGrath and Marshall but that's not the case.

Scyld Berry's 40 best cricketers of last 40 years - find out who is number one here

This summer marks 40 years since the Telegraph's cricket correspondent Scyld Berry started covering the sport.

www.telegraph.co.uk

Only time the rag has made sense.
Since 1970 [approx], I have Viv and Immy 1 and 2. Lara, Warne, Sachin, Akram, Lillee, Beefy, Hadlee, Gilly, Ponting etc on my particular list.
Gilly is the only one I can see shoehorning his way into the medals.

 

[number11]

The medals being Viv, Immy and Gilly.

 

[BazBall21]

Scyld Berry's 40 best cricketers of last 40 years - find out who is number one here

This summer marks 40 years since the Telegraph's cricket correspondent Scyld Berry started covering the sport.

www.telegraph.co.uk

Only time the rag has made sense.
Since 1970 [approx], I have Viv and Immy 1 and 2. Lara, Warne, Sachin, Akram, Lillee, Beefy, Hadlee, Gilly, Ponting etc on my particular list.
Gilly is the only one I can see shoehorning his way into the medals.

Not a bad list

 

[number11]

Not a bad list

Very credible and SB is a credible expert.
IDK anyone who saw the set that wouldn't have Viv and Immy where they are.

 

[BazBall21]

It's generally alright. Hadlee's position is the worst part. He is a top ten cricketer of all time imo. Letterlone of the past 40 years. I wouldn't have Sehwag so high but he loves his attacking batsmen.

 

[number11]

It's generally alright. Hadlee's position is the worst part. He is a top ten cricketer of all time imo. Letterlone of the past 40 years. I wouldn't have Sehwag so high but he loves his attacking batsmen.

This is where we have a need to differentiate tier 1 ATGs from T2 ATGs. T1 means you're a solid candidate for an AT Test X1 [A or B side]. Many greats are not - Miandad or Dravid, S. Waugh or Snow for instance - thus they are T2. T1 is about 25 guys.

 

[honestbharani]

Hell no

Yep. everyone knows Jadeja is the GOAT. Premium ATG is a rung below Jaddu levels.

 

[kyear2]

Two top-tier ATGs but neither were the best test cricketers in their respective teams (Kallis & Marshall).

Think I actually agree with this one.

 

[kyear2]

Scyld Berry's 40 best cricketers of last 40 years - find out who is number one here

This summer marks 40 years since the Telegraph's cricket correspondent Scyld Berry started covering the sport.

www.telegraph.co.uk

Only time the rag has made sense.
Since 1970 [approx], I have Viv and Immy 1 and 2. Lara, Warne, Sachin, Akram, Lillee, Beefy, Hadlee, Gilly, Ponting etc on my particular list.
Gilly is the only one I can see shoehorning his way into the medals.

So many comments

Love how they compared Kallis to Hammond, because that's the most apt comparison. Brilliant batsman and slip fielder who caught everything, and very good part time bowler when needed. Especially telling was "he wore down bowlers he should have dominated" and batted at gear too low for the needs of his team.

Botham was way too high, but that's just my opinion. He wasn't an all time great batsman nor bowler and was **** vs the best team he faced.

Marshall was practically lauded as the best pacer ever, like how they also mentioned his lack of application as a batsman. Anyone who watched him know he had the talent to do better, the situation just hardly required it. But he highlighted how Marshall could do anything with the ball, and was as dangerous and fast as anyone who ever picked up the cherry, no way he could or should be behind....

Warne was way to high and like (but a bit more than) Viv ahead of him, too many of the accolades had nothing to do with results on the field. As I've said what India and Lara did to him excludes him from the top 5 for me and the disregard towards Murali by extension was ridiculous.

Imran, I'm not touching this one, but he kinda called him a ball tamperer, which was odd in such an article.

Viv wasn't the best nor most important player in his team, but he was the leader. He also set the tone and took away games from the opposition. Something more lauded batsman struggled to do, be it in a session, match or series. He was also feared, which did impact the game, but he isn't the best.

One thing I like about the list, is something that CW gets away from. He highlighted winning, we highlight stats way too much over winning.

Brady can't touch Peyton's or probably even Marino's stats, but he won, that's why he's the GOAT. In that regard, that's why Marshall and McGrath makes my top 5 of all time regardless.

 

[kyear2]

The tier 1 (IMHO) ATG's

Openers
Hobbs

Middle Order
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Lara
Smith

All Round Cricketers
Sobers
Kallis
Imran
Gilchrist

Pacers
Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee
Steyn
Ambrose

That's my top 15

I just talked myself out of Warne with my previous post and as I have him slightly above Murali, by extension, Murali as well. Also tempted to include Hammond in the all round cricketers, but as I'm more enamoured with his catching and bowling utility than his batting alone, he also just misses out. Hutton and Gavaskar would round out a top 20.

Think that's a solid top 20.

 

[Coronis]

So many comments

Love how they compared Kallis to Hammond, because that's the most apt comparison. Brilliant batsman and slip fielder who caught everything, and very good part time bowler when needed. Especially telling was "he wore down bowlers he should have dominated" and batted at gear too low for the needs of his team.

Botham was way too high, but that's just my opinion. He wasn't an all time great batsman nor bowler and was **** vs the best team he faced.

Marshall was practically lauded as the best pacer ever, like how they also mentioned his lack of application as a batsman. Anyone who watched him know he had the talent to do better, the situation just hardly required it. But he highlighted how Marshall could do anything with the ball, and was as dangerous and fast as anyone who ever picked up the cherry, no way he could or should be behind....

Warne was way to high and like (but a bit more than) Viv ahead of him, too many of the accolades had nothing to do with results on the field. As I've said what India and Lara did to him excludes him from the top 5 for me and the disregard towards Murali by extension was ridiculous.

Imran, I'm not touching this one, but he kinda called him a ball tamperer, which was odd in such an article.

Viv wasn't the best nor most important player in his team, but he was the leader. He also set the tone and took away games from the opposition. Something more lauded batsman struggled to do, be it in a session, match or series. He was also feared, which did impact the game, but he isn't the best.

One thing I like about the list, is something that CW gets away from. He highlighted winning, we highlight stats way too much over winning.

Brady can't touch Peyton's or probably even Marino's stats, but he won, that's why he's the GOAT. In that regard, that's why Marshall and McGrath makes my top 5 of all time regardless.

If Bradman played for 1930’s New Zealand rather than 1930’s Australia would he still be the GOAT?

 

[kyear2]

If Bradman played for 1930’s New Zealand rather than 1930’s Australia would he still be the GOAT?

He either would have
A. Made 1930 New Zealand much better
B. Not have the final stats he did

One confirms it, the other fixes an anomaly.

Neither takes away from the fact that the aim of the sport is to win.

But saying that doesn't take away from the greatness of Barry Sanders or Peyton Manning, but it is the ultimate goal and should be factored into ratings and rankings imho

 

[OverratedSanity]

One thing I like about the list, is something that CW gets away from. He highlighted winning, we highlight stats way too much over winning.

Brady can't touch Peyton's or probably even Marino's stats, but he won, that's why he's the GOAT. In that regard, that's why Marshall and McGrath makes my top 5 of all time regardless.

You overstate how much influence any one cricketer can have on match results. Would've thought a Lara fan would understand this considering how little his team won once Ambrose and Walsh retired.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Two top-tier ATGs but neither were the best test cricketers in their respective teams (Kallis & Marshall).

Think I actually agree with this one.

When SA became the best team in the world from 2008 onwards, Steyn was easily the better player. Kallis' peak came prior to that. He was still great from 2008-2013 but less so that Steyn clearly.

 

[number11]

The tier 1 (IMHO) ATG's

Openers
Hobbs

Middle Order
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Lara
Smith

All Round Cricketers
Sobers
Kallis
Imran
Gilchrist

Pacers
Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee
Steyn
Ambrose

That's my top 15

I just talked myself out of Warne with my previous post and as I have him slightly above Murali, by extension, Murali as well. Also tempted to include Hammond in the all round cricketers, but as I'm more enamoured with his catching and bowling utility than his batting alone, he also just misses out. Hutton and Gavaskar would round out a top 20.

Think that's a solid top 20.

I agree with some of this - a few additions to the T1 ATGs list (for me): [All post war references]

Openers:

Gavaskar

MO:

Ponting

AR:

Miller

Pace Bowlers:

Akram
Lillee

Spinners:

Warne
Murali

T1 ATG is a very short list.

 

[BazBall21]

For anyone who doesn't have a telegraph subscription; Scyld Berry's top 40 of the 1977-2017 period:

40. Abdul Qadir
39. Andy Flower
38. Andrew Flintoff
37. Steve Waugh
36. Martin Crowe
35. Courtney Walsh
34. Anil Kumble
33. Younis Khan
32. Sanath Jayasuriya
31. Geoffrey Boycott
30. Graeme Smith
29. Mitchell Johnson
28. Kevin Pietersen
27. Shaun Pollock
26. Rahul Dravid
25. Allan Donald
24. Sunil Gavaskar
23. Graham Gooch
22. Waqar Younis
21. Richard Hadlee
20. Kumar Sangakkara
19. Glenn Mcgrath
18. Kapil Dev
17. Allan Border
16. Dennis Lillee
15. Dale Steyn
14. Curtly Ambrose
13. Muttiah Muralitharan
12. Virender Sehwag
11. Ricky Ponting
10. Wasim Akram
9. Brian Lara
8. Jacques Kallis
7. Adam Gilchrist
6. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Ian Botham
4. Malcom Marshall
3. Shane Warne
2. Imran Khan
1. Viv Richards

 

[Adorable Asshole]

For anyone who doesn't have a telegraph subscription; Scyld Berry's top 40 of the 1977-2017 period:

40. Abdul Qadir
39. Andy Flower
38. Andrew Flintoff
37. Steve Waugh
36. Martin Crowe
35. Courtney Walsh
34. Anil Kumble
33. Younis Khan
32. Sanath Jayasuriya
31. Geoffrey Boycott
30. Graeme Smith
29. Mitchell Johnson
28. Kevin Pietersen
27. Shaun Pollock
26. Rahul Dravid
25. Allan Donald
24. Sunil Gavaskar
23. Graham Gooch
22. Waqar Younis
21. Richard Hadlee
20. Kumar Sangakkara
19. Glenn Mcgrath
18. Kapil Dev
17. Allan Border
16. Dennis Lillee
15. Dale Steyn
14. Curtly Ambrose
13. Muttiah Muralitharan
12. Virender Sehwag
11. Ricky Ponting
10. Wasim Akram
9. Brian Lara
8. Jacques Kallis
7. Adam Gilchrist
6. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Ian Botham
4. Malcom Marshall
3. Shane Warne
2. Imran Khan
1. Viv Richards

Lol at Sehwag at 12 and Johnson at 29.

 

[Prince EWS]

Lol at Sehwag at 12 and Johnson at 29.

Sehwag > Murali