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Dale Steyn vs Muralitharan

Better bowler

  • Steyn

    Votes: 16 38.1%

  • Murali

    Votes: 26 61.9%
  • Total voters
    42
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
subshakerz said:
Yes but just admit that against stronger teams, the times when you have a chance to win in the 4th innings would be far less than after gaining an upfront advantage on Day 1.

How many times would Murali get the opportunity to bowl Australia out for 150 or less in the 4th innings, assuming the rest of the team has done all their work to get them a defendable target against a stronger team, versus just the opportunity to bowl them out cheaply in the 1st innings.

Obviously the latter is more common.
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In all honesty, I don't find this argument of yours much sound. Pacers have the advantage in the first 3 days, spinners for the rest and can bowl much longer spells. Don't really think there is much up for debate there.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
capt_Luffy said:
In all honesty, I don't find this argument of yours much sound. Pacers have the advantage in the first 3 days, spinners for the rest and can bowl much longer spells. Don't really think there is much up for debate there.
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You aren't addressing the points. 1st innings performance is more valuable in the long term and there are several other pacers with better 4th innings records than Murali.
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
subshakerz said:
You aren't addressing the points. 1st innings performance is more valuable in the long term and there are several other pacers with better 4th innings records than Murali.
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I am. Yes, 1st innings performance are more valuable overall. Re 4th innings, by pure average there are. But hardly any can ran through a side like Murali. Also Murali can bowl much longer spells than a pacer. Imo, significantly important.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
capt_Luffy said:
I am. Yes, 1st innings performance are more valuable overall. Re 4th innings, by pure average there are. But hardly any can ran through a side like Murali. Also Murali can bowl much longer spells than a pacer. Imo, significantly important.
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Glad we agree on first innings performances.

4th innings is debate since a guy like Hadlee averages 15 in the 4th innings which is crazy. However, I will grant that Murali is more likely to run through a side.

As for longer spells, yes it's true, though often those longer spells of 30 or 40 overs are on batting tracks that leads to draws or losses.
 
H

HouHsiaoHsien

International Debutant
I now think Hadlee is slightly better than Mcgrath, given Hadlee’s performances in the only country he was bad in(Pak) can be justified through context, and he was not bad by any means in WI. Mcgrath was blunted somewhat in Pak and SL, and his record in India though great is a bit overrated. Also against the best opposition(SA), he was not at his best. A new order might be:
Marshall, Hadlee, Steyn/Mcgrath, Murali(the top tier)
Imran, Ambrose
Warne, Donald, Lillee, O’Reilly, Akram
 
H

HouHsiaoHsien

International Debutant
The more and more time goes, I feel Murali is clearly better than Warne. Even in their India records, Murali was clearly better as he only played India once in his peak and had a good series(16 wickets in 3 matches) and dominated them at home. Also dominated ATG Australia at home. If he had one good series in Australia, I would surely consider him the GOAT bowler
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
HouHsiaoHsien said:
I now think Hadlee is slightly better than Mcgrath, given Hadlee’s performances in the only country he was bad in(Pak) can be justified through context, and he was not bad by any means in WI. Mcgrath was blunted somewhat in Pak and SL, and his record in India though great is a bit overrated. Also against the best opposition(SA), he was not at his best. A new order might be:
Marshall, Hadlee, Steyn/Mcgrath, Murali(the top tier)
Imran, Ambrose
Warne, Donald, Lillee, O’Reilly, Akram
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Imo O'Reilly and Akram over Donald and especially Lillee.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
HouHsiaoHsien said:
The more and more time goes, I feel Murali is clearly better than Warne. Even in their India records, Murali was clearly better as he only played India once in his peak and had a good series(16 wickets in 3 matches) and dominated them at home. Also dominated ATG Australia at home. If he had one good series in Australia, I would surely consider him the GOAT bowler
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Yeah but Warne did well in Australia whereas Murali didn't even manage a moderate series there.

But anyways, I think they are statistically close. I just consider Warne a more intelligent and aggressive bowler.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
HouHsiaoHsien said:
I now think Hadlee is slightly better than Mcgrath, given Hadlee’s performances in the only country he was bad in(Pak) can be justified through context, and he was not bad by any means in WI. Mcgrath was blunted somewhat in Pak and SL, and his record in India though great is a bit overrated. Also against the best opposition(SA), he was not at his best. A new order might be:
Marshall, Hadlee, Steyn/Mcgrath, Murali(the top tier)
Imran, Ambrose
Warne, Donald, Lillee, O’Reilly, Akram
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But problem with Hadlee is that a huge percent of his record is in Aus, Eng and NZ.

He played one series in WI (moderate), one in Pak (bad, early career) and two in India (overall good).

McGrath has much more spread out success and over 100 tests of consistent worldclass performance, including in the so-called batting era.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
capt_Luffy said:
Fair to an extent, but I won't count his record there as a failure either; I won't count it for anything. And given the context, I won't blame him for not having success there.
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It is a partial failure. He played in 2007 in his prime and didn't succeed. Yeah another series would have definitive though.
 
H

HouHsiaoHsien

International Debutant
subshakerz said:
But problem with Hadlee is that a huge percent of his record is in Aus, Eng and NZ.

He played one series in WI (moderate), one in Pak (bad, early career) and two in India (overall good).

McGrath has much more spread out success and over 100 tests of consistent worldclass performance, including in the so-called batting era.
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Hadlee was a lone warrior, whereas Mcgrath bowled in a stronger attack. That also needs to be considered. Whatever chances outside the three countries you mentioned, Hadlee capitalised on well: brilliant in India(equal to Mcgrath), Pak(early in his career, not a big problem) and a decent series in WI. But maybe Mcgrath played in a wider range of conditions and maybe I switch back to him.
 
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capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
HouHsiaoHsien said:
Hadlee was a lone warrior, whereas Mcgrath bowled in a stronger attack. That also needs to be considered. Whatever chances outside the three countries you mentioned, Hadlee capitalised on well: brilliant in India(better than Mcgrath cause part of a weaker attack but great WPM and SE) , Pak(early in his career, not a big problem) and a decent series in WI.
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Also the best bowler ever in English counties. Even I would say, had Hadlee emulated his County record (14 bowling and 38 batting average) to Tests, I would had ranked him even above Don.
 
Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
subshakerz said:
Duh. Way to miss the point.

But guys like McGrath, Hadlee, Marshall and even Steyn maintain worldclass standards across innings, 1st to 4th.

Just saw, Hadlee averages 15 in the 4th innings. Awesome.
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Is averaging 26 and taking more than 3 wickets an innings not world class standard anymore?

Must have very few world class bowlers in the world.
 
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