cnerd123
likes this
basically everyone voted for so far here no? We're talking just as bowlers mind, their batting ability shouldn't factor in.
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CW's Ranking of Spinners (Tests)
- Thread starter gftw
- Start date
CricAddict
Cricketer Of The Year
No. Not even half of the bowlers voted so far average less than 25 with the ball in FC like Jadeja. And I have not checked the bowlers you have listed but I can daresay most of them won`t as well.
There are no real reasons to discredit his bowling, just created reasons.
ataraxia
International Coach
you sure?
cnerd123
likes this
Umm you might want to double check your stats.
1. Muttiah Muralitharan - 1374 FC wickets @ 19.64
2. Shane Warne - 1319 @ 26.11
3. Bill O'Reilly - 774 @ 16.60
4. Jim Laker - 1944 @ 18.71
5. Clarrie Grimmett - 1424 @ 22.28
6. Hedley Verity - 1956 @ 14.90
7. Hugh Tayfield - 864 @ 21.86
8. Anil Kumble - 1136 @ 25.83
9. Derek Underwood - 2465 (!!) @ 20.28
10. Lance Gibbs - 1024 @ 27.22
11. Ravichandran Ashwin - 672 @ 25.35
12. Richie Benaud - 945 @ 24.73
Jadeja - 443 @ 24.40
Ashwin sticks out like a sore thumb, only one there with less than 700 wickets, which illustratest my point really. All of them are clearly better FC bowlers than Jadeja, and all of them have equivalent or better Test records than Jadeja too (except for Benaud - wtf guys?)
Have abstained from voting after Ashwin cuz wanted to do more research, and it's possible Jaddu breaks the Top 15, but no way he should be in that Top 11.
ataraxia
International Coach
Verity getting 2000 FC wickets at a stupid average despite only playing in the 1930s is so great.
oh and obligatory plug for the other super-great Yorkshire SLA; Wilf has 4,204 at 16.72 (and probably could've been 5000 at 16.00 were it not for the period he played as a batter who could bowl)
CricAddict
Cricketer Of The Year
Cnerd said they all averaged lesser than Jadeja and 5 of them don't. And I am off by just 2 since 4/12 average more than 25. and I said it off the top of my head and didn't actually check all the stats on internet.
ataraxia
International Coach
You're off by three. And are you seriously saying that Jadeja is better than Ashwin, Kumble, Gibbs, and Warne?
And without checking stats pretty much every other spinner currently in contention to get on this list averages under 25 in FC (which is a weird marker, but that's for another time).
CricAddict
Cricketer Of The Year
I didn't say that he is better than them. I am just saying that he is underrated big time when Cnerd said that Jadeja won't even be in the top 20 which is where this conversation started.
And in the all-rounders thread, he is underrated even more.
CricAddict
Cricketer Of The Year
And off by two or three doesnt matter when he said none and there exist bowlers in the list over 25.
cnerd123
likes this
Jadeja might make the Top 20 tbf, just not off the top of my head given how many great spinners there have been and the fact that he has <250 Test wickets. 18th all time wicket-taker and several players with less wickets than him have already been voted in.
His FC record is inferior to everyone here. Averages aren't the be all and end all, longevity matters and the sheer weight of wickets by Ashwin, Kumble, Gibbs and Warne both in Test and FC cricket will see them get over Jaddu quite easily. He comfortably has the worst red-ball record of all the spinners voted in so far, tho his Test record is better than Benaud.
Also FWIW I think Kumble/Gibbs/Warne/Ashwin all average under 25 in FC cricket once you take their Tests out of their record. Well except Warne perhaps, he is famously better at Tests than in the Sheffield Shield.
His FC record is inferior to everyone here. Averages aren't the be all and end all, longevity matters and the sheer weight of wickets by Ashwin, Kumble, Gibbs and Warne both in Test and FC cricket will see them get over Jaddu quite easily. He comfortably has the worst red-ball record of all the spinners voted in so far, tho his Test record is better than Benaud.
Also FWIW I think Kumble/Gibbs/Warne/Ashwin all average under 25 in FC cricket once you take their Tests out of their record. Well except Warne perhaps, he is famously better at Tests than in the Sheffield Shield.
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
I'm surprised Ramadhin hasn't had a single vote yet, so voting out of respect to the great man on his passing.
CricAddict
Cricketer Of The Year
Both Ashwin and Jadeja are currently playing and so obviously the total wicket count is lesser in first class cricket, especially with ODIs, T20s and IPL eating away a lot of their time compared to those oldies who only played first class and test cricket day in day out.
Averages aren`t the be all end all but averages do matter. You can check my historical posts and I have never once said Jadeja is better than Ashwin or Kumble as a pure spinner. I am one of the biggest Warne fans in this forum and always vote for Warne whenever I find a chance. Like I said earlier, it is your first post that Jadeja will have to squeak into the top 20 which squeaked me.
OverratedSanity
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Chandrasekar
cnerd123
likes this
Richie Benaud's record:
Test - 248 wickets @ 27.03 (SR 77, Econ 2.10)
FC - 945 wickets @ 24.73 (SR 64, Econ 2.31)
Bowlers with comparable or better Test records than Benaud who have not been voted yet
Herath - 433 wickets @ 28.07 (SR 60, Econ 2.80)
Harbhajan - 417 @ 32.46 (68.5, 2.84)
Lyon - 415 @ 31.79 (64.2, 2.96)
Swann - 255 @ 29.96 (60.1, 2.98)
Chandraskehar - 242 @ 29.74 (65.9, 2.7)
Ravi Jadeja - 232 wickets @ 24.84 (61.7, 2.41)
Rhodes - 127 wickets @ 26.96 (64.7, 2.49)
Have underlined the areas in which these spinners beat Benaud. Many of them have superior FC numbers too.
If we look at spinners who played during Benaud's era, Tony Lock had less wickets but better average/SR (albeit with a dodgy action), Johnny Wardle averaged 19 (but with a third of the games and wickets), and he was also bowling against Laker and Tayfield. He didn't really stand out in any specific very special way, outside of playing a lot of games and taking lots of wickets as a result. Plus he was an allrounder - in 11 of his 63 games he bowled 20 or less overs for the match. Probably some rain effected games there, I didn't check, but he only took on a front line bowler's workload later in his career, suggesting he benefitted from having other skills to keep him in the team until his bowling matured.
Just on the numbers alone I cannot see the rationale in voting for him as 12th best. Similarly, most writing about him talk about his all-round ability and his captaincy, rather than just waxing lyrical about his bowling alone. Since those other skills are not factors here, I don't understand how he can get in above some, if not all, of those spinners above. Can those who voted for him please explain?
Test - 248 wickets @ 27.03 (SR 77, Econ 2.10)
FC - 945 wickets @ 24.73 (SR 64, Econ 2.31)
Bowlers with comparable or better Test records than Benaud who have not been voted yet
Herath - 433 wickets @ 28.07 (SR 60, Econ 2.80)
Harbhajan - 417 @ 32.46 (68.5, 2.84)
Lyon - 415 @ 31.79 (64.2, 2.96)
Swann - 255 @ 29.96 (60.1, 2.98)
Chandraskehar - 242 @ 29.74 (65.9, 2.7)
Ravi Jadeja - 232 wickets @ 24.84 (61.7, 2.41)
Rhodes - 127 wickets @ 26.96 (64.7, 2.49)
Have underlined the areas in which these spinners beat Benaud. Many of them have superior FC numbers too.
If we look at spinners who played during Benaud's era, Tony Lock had less wickets but better average/SR (albeit with a dodgy action), Johnny Wardle averaged 19 (but with a third of the games and wickets), and he was also bowling against Laker and Tayfield. He didn't really stand out in any specific very special way, outside of playing a lot of games and taking lots of wickets as a result. Plus he was an allrounder - in 11 of his 63 games he bowled 20 or less overs for the match. Probably some rain effected games there, I didn't check, but he only took on a front line bowler's workload later in his career, suggesting he benefitted from having other skills to keep him in the team until his bowling matured.
Just on the numbers alone I cannot see the rationale in voting for him as 12th best. Similarly, most writing about him talk about his all-round ability and his captaincy, rather than just waxing lyrical about his bowling alone. Since those other skills are not factors here, I don't understand how he can get in above some, if not all, of those spinners above. Can those who voted for him please explain?
MartinB voted twice and it was counted both times diu. Cheating Aussies at it again.
Line and Length
Cricketer Of The Year
Of the post WWII spinners I'm sticking with Johnny Wardle. 102 wickets @ 20.39 despite being deprived of opportunities by Laker and for discipline reasons.
cnerd123
likes this
Anyways my vote is for Fatteh (Herath). Those numbers and the sheer weight of wickets are ridiculously good, especially in a batting friendly era. He took over from Murali and almost single-handedly kept Sri Lanka a competitive side towards the end of his career. Spun his stock ball hard, had fantastic control, very intelligent, and bowled a brilliant carrom ball too. Proper quality spinner, better than Benaud and should be in 13.
Shady Slim
International Coach
i'll vote for herath too
criminally underrated. the way that he sonned australia in 2016 is legendary and ought never to be forgotten imho
