CW decides the greatest All-Rounder ever, 64 man knockout tournament: Voting Thread

[Gob]

A player can be both good and overrated

Waaah

I literally said the exact thing yesterday

 

[Gob]

Sobers was the better Kallisballer imo

 

[honestbharani]

You're missing my point. I don't think McGrath was an 85-90 mph at the start who dropped his pace later and became 80-85 mph. McG was consistently between 80-85 mph throughout his career. Similarly with Sobers. He was never really a quick bowler who dropped his pace. At best he was fast medium (which i believe is slower than medium fast?) but usually since he did bowl a fair bit of defensive overs so he would generally bowl medium pace (a shortened run up Chaminda Vaas comes to mind).

Edit: Plus there is footage of him on the internet which confirms my hypothesis. My point is that perhaps he did bowl a spell or two that were quite hostile but there isn't a lot of evidence to suggest that he could crank it up whenever he would like to.

Nah, there is plenty of footage and literature that shows that your hypothesis is not based on any facts. To me fast medium is 85 to 90 mph and I think he was that for the major part of the time he did bowl that style. The footage that Red Hill posted plus more shows that he was nippy and the only video you found to show him bowling medium pace is from 1973 and I think he retired in 1974. Again, a hypothesis so tedious that its hard to accept it given that every other person who has written about cricket and seen Sobers bowl say he is anything but a military medium bowler.

And McGrath was clocked at 88 mph during the 1999 WC. And you can see any number of times when he touches 140. He slowed down post 2001 or 2002 I would say but dunno if you are aware, his career started in 1994 and he was bloody quick in the mid 90s.

 

[smash84]

Nah, there is plenty of footage and literature that shows that your hypothesis is not based on any facts. To me fast medium is 85 to 90 mph and I think he was that for the major part of the time he did bowl that style. The footage that Red Hill posted plus more shows that he was nippy and the only video you found to show him bowling medium pace is from 1973 and I think he retired in 1974. Again, a hypothesis so tedious that its hard to accept it given that every other person who has written about cricket and seen Sobers bowl say he is anything but a military medium bowler.

And McGrath was clocked at 88 mph during the 1999 WC. And you can see any number of times when he touches 140. He slowed down post 2001 or 2002 I would say but dunno if you are aware, his career started in 1994 and he was bloody quick in the mid 90s.

, Sobers being fast medium and bowling 85 to 90 mph and that being just nippy There's no way he was bowling that quick, Go and check the bowling speeds of the bowling competition held in Australia in the 1970s. It had Lillee, Thommo, Roberts, Holding, Imran. I might be basing stuff on scant information but you're starting to pull stuff out of your backside.

And yeah I didn't read enough on Sobers and never watched him bowl but there is no way he was a quick bowler for a major part of his 20 year career. Lillianthomson says he was quick for an 8 year period (which is quite a bit and maybe he saw Sobers bowl too) and I stand corrected perhaps. But what you're saying is just hogwash.

McG could put his effort balls close to 90 perhaps but that's about it. Generally he bowled around between 130 to 135 kph. Just because he bowled one delivery at 88 mph doesn't mean he was bloody quick. Shoaib bowled a 100 mph delivery doesn;t mean he was always bowling 100 mph. McG was no Alan Donald. A 2nd link for you.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/thestands/content/story/659331.html

Yet, for much of the last three quarters of his career, when speed guns truly became ubiquitous, McGrath seemed to be trundling in between low to mid 130s kph. What was at play here?

 

[honestbharani]

Who said he was Allan Donald? FAst bowlers are generally on average above 140 kph. McG in the 90s was easily fast medium (135 to 140) and that is what I said. And I am not basing stuff on anything but facts, like written accounts about his bowling by people who actually saw him bowl. You are the one pulling numbers out of nowhere here. I dont have the time to google basic stuff just to show boat in a thread on new years' eve. And those bowling speeds were measured differently to how it is measured today. That is common knowledge,esp. given how inferior the cameras were back then. I am not saying he was as fast as any of the guys you quoted. I am just saying those guys were likely 90+ (or 140 kph+ if you wanna drill down to specific numbers) to Sobers being 85+ and yes he was nippy, and if that is news to you, it just shows your ignorance on his bowling. Just google anything about his bowling FFS.


And 8 years period that LT is talking about is when he was playing as a fast medium bowler for the most part. He was doing spin duties before (coz of no other decent spinner being able to make the side) and after (coz he was aging and his batting was more important). The only hogwash in this page has been your posting with zero research and just gut feeling based on ONE video from the year before he retired from international cricket


And the link you quoted is not even from a cricket journo, just some big cricket fan like you or me and obviously just as liable to misinformation and bias.


FWIW, there are BETTER posts about how quick Sobers was right here at CC. Just google any Sobers Vs Miller or Sobers Vs Imran thread.

 

[steve132]

When bowling his seamers Sobers was a fast-medium bowler. He was never fast in the sense in which Tyson or Hall or Lillee or Thomson or Holding were fast, but in his prime (roughly between 1962 and 1970) his pace was distinctly above military medium. After that period age and a knee injury combined to reduce his pace significantly.

I make these observations as someone who saw Sobers bowl on many occasions. In any event, my views are the same as those of virtually all the players or journalists who saw him. Anyone with questions about Sobers's bowling would do well to find out what Geoff Boycott or Barry Richards, for instance, have to say on the subject.

 

[Red]

. He was never a Marshall, McGrath, Ambrose, Lillee etc by any stretch of the imagination

Clearly not, but I actually think it's more interesting to think was he as good a pace bowler as say, Chaminda Vaas or Geoff Lawson or Phil DeFraitas (just random names)? Guys who are acknowledged as good or very good quick bowlers, but not greats or ATGs. And I think he probably was. Which makes him exceptional, considering those guys would be third quicks in most nation's current XIs, combined with the fact he averaged nearly sixty with the bat with a BIG bowling workload.

 

[smash84]

Clearly not, but I actually think it's more interesting to think was he as good a pace bowler as say, Chaminda Vaas or Geoff Lawson or Phil DeFraitas (just random names)? Guys who are acknowledged as good or very good quick bowlers, but not greats or ATGs. And I think he probably was. Which makes him exceptional, considering those guys would be third quicks in most nation's current XIs, combined with the fact he averaged nearly sixty with the bat with a BIG bowling workload.

I can't say about Geoff Lawson or Phil Defraitas but Chaminda Vaas was a pretty gun bowler. If Sobers was as good as Vaas (which at least his stats don't indicate) then he has a strong case to be ranked above Bradman.

 

[smash84]

When bowling his seamers Sobers was a fast-medium bowler. He was never fast in the sense in which Tyson or Hall or Lillee or Thomson or Holding were fast, but in his prime (roughly between 1962 and 1970) his pace was distinctly above military medium. After that period age and a knee injury combined to reduce his pace significantly.

I make these observations as someone who saw Sobers bowl on many occasions. In any event, my views are the same as those of virtually all the players or journalists who saw him. Anyone with questions about Sobers's bowling would do well to find out what Geoff Boycott or Barry Richards, for instance, have to say on the subject.

Thank you for pitching in with some useful insights. That's what I thought too that he would be above military medium (fast medium at best) and that he was probably not medium fast (which some people are defining) as 85-90 mph

 

[Lillian Thomson]

If Sobers was as good as Vaas (which at least his stats don't indicate) then he has a strong case to be ranked above Bradman.

Happy New Year.

 

[Red]

I can't say about Geoff Lawson or Phil Defraitas but Chaminda Vaas was a pretty gun bowler. If Sobers was as good as Vaas (which at least his stats don't indicate) then he has a strong case to be ranked above Bradman.

It's all subjective. But my point was more that comparing Sobers to Lillee or Marshall or McGrath isn't the right thing to do. But if he is as good a bowler as someone like Vaas (don't really care if it's one way or the other) PLUS a top 6 batsman who is maybe the second best of all time, it shows what an unreal cricketer he was. Even if we just say he was as good a bowler as everyone's fave whipping boy Ishant (with a full bowling workload), plus as good a batsman as Brian Lara, it shows how ****ing epic the guy was.

Or to keep it WIian, he was Brian Lara and Jerome Taylor all rolled into one, with the fielding skills of Viv. ****ing crazy.

 

[smash84]

It's all subjective. But my point was more that comparing Sobers to Lillee or Marshall or McGrath isn't the right thing to do. But if he is as good a bowler as someone like Vaas (don't really care if it's one way or the other) PLUS a top 6 batsman who is maybe the second best of all time, it shows what an unreal cricketer he was. Even if we just say he was as good a bowler as everyone's fave whipping boy Ishant (with a full bowling workload), plus as good a batsman as Brian Lara, it shows how ****ing epic the guy was.

Or to keep it WIian, he was Brian Lara and Jerome Taylor all rolled into one, with the fielding skills of Viv. ****ing crazy.

I don't know about that. If he was like a pre 2014 Ishant ****ing Sharma then he was god awful (incidentally their averages weren't that far apart pre 2014).

 

[AndrewB]

At best he was fast medium (which i believe is slower than medium fast?)

I thought (at least in recent usage) that the usual ordering was fast > fast-medium > medium-fast > medium ? (That's the order on Wikipedia, for instance).

 

[watson]

Fast: > 141 kph (>88 mph)

Fast Medium: 130 - 141 kph (81 - 88 mph)

Medium Fast: 120 - 129 kph (75 - 80 mph)

Medium: 96 - 119 kph (60 - 74 mph)

Slow: < 96 kph (<60 mph)

Fast Bowling: Classification by Speed - Cricvision

 

[watson]

Here's Sobers bowling in the twilight of his career against England in 1973. However, he was still quick enough to open the bowling with Keith Boyce and warrant 4 slips, a forward short-leg, and a leg-gully. Ray Illingworth completely bamboozled by Sobers late in-swing with the second new ball.

If Sobers's was able to focus on his bowling, rather than his batting and bowling, then there's little doubt that he would have achieved a sub-30 average - easily. As it stands his average of 34 puts him on a statistical par with Danny Morrison, Daniel Vettori, Phil DeFreitas, Lasith Malinga, and Brian McMillan. This I find a little odd as he looks damned good in the footage I've seen.

 

[smash84]

Here's Sobers bowling in the twilight of his career against England in 1973. However, he was still quick enough to open the bowling with Keith Boyce and warrant 4 slips, a forward short-leg, and a leg-gully. Ray Illingworth completely bamboozled by Sobers late in-swing with the second new ball.

If Sobers's was able to focus on his bowling, rather than his batting and bowling, then there's little doubt that he would have achieved a sub-30 average - easily. As it stands his average of 34 puts him on a statistical par with Danny Morrison, Daniel Vettori, Phil DeFreitas, Lasith Malinga, and Brian McMillan. This I find a little odd as he looks damned good in the footage I've seen.

Obviously you are seeing the best bits of his bowling in the youtube footage so he will look damn good. Plus he wasn't a strike bowler either so his average looks great. Very economical but he would take more than 15 overs to get you a wicket.

You just put up the same footage that I had put into my initial post. I thought you might have had something different here

 

[watson]

Obviously you are seeing the best bits of his bowling in the youtube footage so he will look damn good. Plus he wasn't a strike bowler either so his average looks great. Very economical but he would take more than 15 overs to get you a wicket.

You just put up the same footage that I had put into my initial post. I thought you might have had something different here

You must have a better memory than me Smali. This documentary shows a good deal of Sober's bowling. The delivery at the 4 minute mark is another classic example of Sober's prodigious in-swing.

 

[smash84]

now this is new stuff

 

[kyear2]

Basically we are talking about a cricketer who was at least as good a batsman as Richards / Tendulkar / Lara / Hobbs and one of the few genuine contenders to be the greatest batsman after Bradman. He could catch in the slips at least as well as Simpson / Chappell / Hammond could field like Richards / Ponting / A.B. and could bowl three separate and distinct types of bowling.

Additionally,when people look at his bowling stats, we must remember that for the first part of his carer he was a at best, below average test spinner. As a fast bowler he was much more effective. In helpful conditions, he was more than a handful.

He was an incredible cricketer.

 

[Gowza]

Sobers was incredible considering his workload. But Miller was incredible also, his test stats may not back him up as a batsman but just as we could say sobers would average sub 30 as a bowler if he concentrated on it more, I've little doubt Miller could have, if he desired to, averaged around 50 with the bat in tests and going by the stories I'd say that would have been a possibility regardless of his bowling workload.

Sobers may be the 2nd best bat of all time but in Miller you had a player who was a 22/23 average front line bowler and a batsman who could play an innings as good as anyone to have played. It's a bit of speculation and personal belief on both sides and I think really it's a tough call no matter what. Sobers probably nudges ahead for most because of the 2nd best bat all time tag (obviously Miller doesn't have that tag with either his batting or bowling) and his versatility as a bowler (pace and spin).