subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Fair blackmark may be too harsh a word, blemish rather.
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Curtly Ambrose vs Sunil Gavaskar
- Thread starter DrWolverine
- Start date
DrWolverine
International Debutant
2 Tests is too low of a sample size to judge
The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
Definitely. I watched the series live and he batted well, as you'd expect a player of his class.
I maintain that doesn't mean you casually throw him the MotS award ahead of Punter (who hit two tons and averaged 125) or McGrath (who took 18 wickets at 13), both for the team that won the series 3-0, without it looking like charity.
OverratedSanity
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Probably should've been McGrath really. India's bowling was diabolical. Atleast our batting lineup had some good batsmen mixed in with the terrible ones so McGrath had to work for his returns somewhat.
Edit: Also, Tendulkar got hosed by rough decisions 2-3 times tbh. Clearly would've averaged 100+ if not for corrupt racist umpires.
The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
Clever move adding that edit *after* I'd liked the post...Probably should've been McGrath really. India's bowling was diabolical. Atleast our batting lineup had some good batsmen mixed in with the terrible ones so McGrath had to work for his returns somewhat.
Edit: Also, Tendulkar got hosed by rough decisions 2-3 times tbh. Clearly would've averaged 100+ if not for corrupt racist umpires.
The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
I realise it's off topic for the thread so I won't post more on it after this, but related to Australia v India MotS awards it's quite remarkable that Punter played four home series - comprising 15 Tests - against India, in which he scored seven tons (three of them doubles) and seven half centuries, totalling 1,893 runs at 86.05.
And he was MotS in none of them!
And he was MotS in none of them!
OverratedSanity
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Clarke in 2011/12 was an obvious one. Dravid in 03/04 was fair because of the Adelaide game alone imo.
Probably got robbed in 99/2000 though.
The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
Yeah, I think he was just unlucky - Dravid more than fair as you say for being so decisive in India's win in a tied series, and Clarke was in full Bradman mode in 2012. I don't think Punter should have been given the award for those other series, more that it was remarkable he kept being so good and running into one person each time being even better!
kyear2
International Coach
You do notice that you referenced two countries for Lillee and 3 for Ambrose.
And of the Ambrose 3, one was clearly the best team of the day.
There's not really a comparison between the two from that perspective.
He also really didn't fail anywhere.
DrWolverine
International Debutant
Lillee outside Aus/Eng/NZ : 5 Tests. 6 wickets
Ambrose outside WI/Aus/Eng : 12 Tests. 36 wickets
Compared to other greats, the proportion is low
DrWolverine
International Debutant
First half of his career, he played for the best team. And yes he was extraordinary against the best team he played against throughout his career but that isn’t enough in my opinion.
DrWolverine
International Debutant
I feel certain bowlers get judged differently.
Allan Donald is rightfully penalised for not performing well against Australia(Avg of 31) and in Australia(Avg of 28) even though he is excellent elsewhere.
Curtly Ambrose gets a free pass despite not playing much in subcontinent and also for having mediocre record against Pak(Avg of 28) and dismal record against India(Avg of 38).
Allan Donald is rightfully penalised for not performing well against Australia(Avg of 31) and in Australia(Avg of 28) even though he is excellent elsewhere.
Curtly Ambrose gets a free pass despite not playing much in subcontinent and also for having mediocre record against Pak(Avg of 28) and dismal record against India(Avg of 38).
akilana
International 12th Man
similary mcgrath's average against SA doesn't get the scrutiny but i feel it's because australia always beat SA.. I think if mcgrath was from another country and averaged 27 vs Aus, it would have been brought up more often.
sayon basak
Cricketer Of The Year
People probably don't judge bowlers only by going through averages.
DrWolverine
International Debutant
True. I have always felt Donald was slightly better than Ambrose - Better action, more threatening on a regular basis and very aggressive.
DrWolverine
International Debutant
When sample size is quite decent, it is a good indicator.
15 wickets in 9 Tests @ 38 against India
42 wickets in 14 Tests @ 28 against Pakistan
DrWolverine
International Debutant
True. Donald was their biggest star and was expected to play well against them.
For Australia, even if McGrath underperformed by his standards, Shane Warne more than made up for it unlike Pollock who failed alongside Donald.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
True but McGraths failings have been more at home vs SA
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Yeah there is a lot of Ambrose love on this forum but his issues don't really get mentioned because folks just look at the averages without context.
sayon basak
Cricketer Of The Year
Ambrose's highs were higher imo. Him in Australia was better than Donald anywhere.