Cricketweb's 5 most unfairly treated players

[Spark]

Statistics here are often used as predictors of performance though.

Say someone averages 50 on the subcontinent, but averages 75 against Bangladesh and 30 against India/SL. Would you say that the 50 average is a good predictor of how he'd go against India/SL? That's essentially the theory behind exclusion of certain stats/scores - that they are unrepresentative and skew the statistic.

 

[Uppercut]

Richard's line was that if you want to judge a player's quality at the highest level, there's no reason to define the highest level as "anything that the ICC declares to be a test". The jump in quality is, he argued, quite clearly between Bang/Zim and the other test nations as opposed to between FC sides and all of the test nations, so that's a more sensible place to make the cleave.

I just argued that Bangladesh are rarely competitive, and runs in an uncompetitive match aren't worth anywhere near as much as runs in a tight match. That's a bit theoretical, but the fact that some countries play Bangladesh a lot more than others means that including them biases the figures quite badly. So if you can't be bothered to standardise, it's definitely better to exclude them entirely than just leave them in.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Statistics here are often used as predictors of performance though.

Say someone averages 50 on the subcontinent, but averages 75 against Bangladesh and 30 against India/SL. Would you say that the 50 average is a good predictor of how he'd go against India/SL? That's essentially the theory behind exclusion of certain stats/scores - that they are unrepresentative and skew the statistic.

Ok here is the thing..when you make a prediction you have to consider that no prediction will ever be 100%.

Secondly, there are other things you need to look at, how many matches he has played in the subcontinent, how many matches against India, SL and BD. plus how well he plays spin on spin friendly tracks and turners. For example Lara has a poor record in India..but if he were to play a match in India, I would never predict that he would fail because his previous record is poor.

Tendulkar has an average of 136 against Bangladesh but when comparing Tendulkar with Lara, I would never use the argument Tendulkar > Lara because he has a better record against Bangladesh. Sometimes you just have to use your common sense

 

[Uppercut]

Ok here is the thing..when you make a prediction you have to consider that no prediction will ever be 100%.

Sounds a bit like the anti-UDRS arguments .

A better figure is still a better figure, even if neither figure tells you much. It's much sounder to criticise someone for using stats at all (or for relying too heavily on them) than it is to criticise them for leaving Zimbladesh out of their stats.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Sounds a bit like the anti-UDRS arguments .

A better figure is still a better figure, even if neither figure tells you much. It's much sounder to criticise someone for using stats at all (or for relying too heavily on them) than it is to criticise them for leaving Zimbladesh out of their stats.

The Anti UDRS argument is since its not 100% we shouldn't use it.

Just because your prediction is not going to be 100% doesn't mean you shouldn't make any predictions at all..its still a lot of fun

 

[Jacknife]

Considering the fact that Bangladesh has one of the best 3 spinners in the world today, I would not ignore runs against Bangladesh in Bangladesh.

Also if your KP, you'd hate to face the over abundance of left arm pie chuckers that Bangladesh has as well as one of the better ones, I bet he'd much rather face a few other sides attacks tbh.

 

[Cabinet96]

Totally agree with all that, all you have to do is take a look at crapinfo today for confirmation, tbh in last couple of years it's got to the point of being a bit of a witch hunt against him by certain quarters of the press, they love nothing more than a poor run of form from KP and on slow cricket days a article about him always pops up for no particular reason than to have a dig.

Lots of people I know are saying how they would drop Pietersen. Always made the scape goat for the teams performance. There was an article in The Cricketer saying how England should drop Pietersen because he isn't a team man etc...

It seems some people just don't like the guy and as soon as there are a couple of poor tests they smell blood.

The thing about KP is that he was and sometimes still is talked about as "the most talented English player of his generation", a notion he has tried his utmost to push, and the first truly great English batsman in donkey's years. Now, an average of 49 is good but given that he was seemingly on track for greatness several years ago, to "fall" to that level which doesn't really place him above his major contemporaries such as Clarke, Hussey, ABdV, Amla (who IIRC all have averages just below 50 or just above in Hussey's case), it means people will look on him a bit harsher than they do others, because they're using a slightly different yardstick - his yardstick. I mean, it's not hard - but perhaps unfair - to come to the conclusion that he's been on the decline for several years now and at his age, that's really quite alarming.

I don't think what happened to him with the captaincy helps his case at all.

AWTA, good points.

 

[Himannv]

Nah, we only ignore those runs when it doesn't favour the player we like in a debate. Thought this was obvious.

Best answer obviously!!

 

[Jacknife]

Lots of people I know are saying how they would drop Pietersen. Always made the scape goat for the teams performance. There was an article in The Cricketer saying how England should drop Pietersen because he isn't a team man etc...

It seems some people just don't like the guy and as soon as there are a couple of poor tests they smell blood.



AWTA, good points.

Yes, It's pathetic tbh and it gets a little boring the line that KP's a poor team man, even though you've never really heard anything about such things from ex England players or the ones around the team now, in fact it's the opposite. It just seems to me that the people who write such things haven't got a clue and just jump on the bandwagon because it suits their agenda. It's also a lot of lazy journalism thrown in as well, add to that he's a easy target.

Every time I watch England play, which is every time they play, he looks very much a team man, so I haven't a clue where they get this from, apart from listening to other people's opinion and passing it off as fact.

When you go look around and read some of the comments, even in the more respectable papers, they're just as bad, people claiming he shouldn't even be in the team on performance, that we've got tons better batsmen hanging around in the County Championship and he should earn his place in the team. When you read such things my only conclusions is that they're not cricket fans at all and haven't a clue about the CC or what other players there are, on top of the fact he's done very well for England the last year over and isn't any where near getting dropped.

 

[tooextracool]

The thing about KP is that he was and sometimes still is talked about as "the most talented English player of his generation", a notion he has tried his utmost to push, and the first truly great English batsman in donkey's years. Now, an average of 49 is good but given that he was seemingly on track for greatness several years ago, to "fall" to that level which doesn't really place him above his major contemporaries such as Clarke, Hussey, ABdV, Amla (who IIRC all have averages just below 50 or just above in Hussey's case), it means people will look on him a bit harsher than they do others, because they're using a slightly different yardstick - his yardstick. I mean, it's not hard - but perhaps unfair - to come to the conclusion that he's been on the decline for several years now and at his age, that's really quite alarming.

I don't think what happened to him with the captaincy helps his case at all.

I know the captaincy situation gets thrown in a lot and maybe you are right about the fact that that has had a long lasting impression because the reality is that he really hasnt been the same player since he dropped the captaincy in 2008/09. My gut feeling though is that he tossed away his opportunity at greatness by playing what is it like 6 non-international FC games over the last 7 years? Practice makes perfect, especially for someone who is largely a confidence player like himself.

 

[smash84]

KP is my favorite English player (or should I say south african ). Always does seem to be a democles sword hanging over him

 

[Spark]

I know the captaincy situation gets thrown in a lot and maybe you are right about the fact that that has had a long lasting impression because the reality is that he really hasnt been the same player since he dropped the captaincy in 2008/09. My gut feeling though is that he tossed away his opportunity at greatness by playing what is it like 6 non-international FC games over the last 7 years? Practice makes perfect, especially for someone who is largely a confidence player like himself.

From my POV this isn't a big deal simply because in my experience int'l players get very, very few opportunities to play non-int'l FC cricket anyway.

However I'm aware that in England you play a lot, lot more FC cricket so there's certainly plenty of opportunity there. If that speaks to a poor attitude or approach to the game, then that is a huge obstacle to him fulfilling his "natural talent".

I only really cited the captaincy factor as just that, though, a factor, and I'm not about to try and explain why he's not really kicked on at all but rather fallen to the mean and indeed arguably below many of his contemporaries (although if I did, the first place I'd look is between his ears), just explaining as I see it why he seems to get the spotlight turned on him very easily.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Best answer obviously!!

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Neil Johnson was one of the finest all rounders in limited overs cricket and no one remembers him.

Just saw this.

NeilJohnsonIsMyHero.

 

[Zinzan]

lol @ this thread....pages 14-19 = Vintage Richard

 

[silentstriker]

Tendulkar

 

[unam]

Kallis

 

[Burgey]

Tendulkar

Unfairly deified, I agree.

 

[nexxus]

Just saw this.

NeilJohnsonIsMyHero.

I kinda went off Jonno when after he retired, he went to join the Cobras instead of the Dolphins.

Now I get confused, sometimes I like his commentary and sometimes it's just awful.

 

[Zinzan]

I kinda went off Jonno when after he retired, he went to join the Cobras instead of the Dolphins.

Now I get confused, sometimes I like his commentary and sometimes it's just awful.

I'm just trying to think if I remember Johnson's commentary. Isn't he really animated?