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cricketers who have made the most of their talent

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Quite possibly correct. However when you hear Boycs proferring those kinds of opinions, you start to search (and it's not usually a very difficult search) for the ulterior motive
Possibly a very unfair accusation when applyed to Boycotts technical breakdown of a player.

He is very candid elsewhere in his writing about his strained relationship with Botham and also his admiration for him. I dont think there is a hint of ulterior motive in his technical assessment.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
Possibly a very unfair accusation when applyed to Boycotts technical breakdown of a player.

He is very candid elsewhere in his writing about his strained relationship with Botham and also his admiration for him. I dont think there is a hint of ulterior motive in his technical assessment.
Yes I may be being unfair to Boycs. Let me just run with the ball for a second, though, and suggest that his ulterior motive may have been to prove that (a) he was a greater player than Botham, (b) Botham was a bit of a coward against quick bowling, (c) he (Boycs) had to face fast bowling in every innings he played and did so without taking a backward step and therefore (d) Boycs is the greatest living Englishman, although a sorely under-rated one.

(see also FS Trueman's masterwork: "Why I'm the greatest fast bowler in the history of cricket, by a process of elimination")
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I don't think, myself, that Boycott needs to prove he was a greater batsman than Botham was. Nor do I imagine even Sir Geoff would try to prove himself a greater bowler than Both.

So therefore it's an apples and oranges (or kettles and car-seats if you prefer) situation.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
I don't think, myself, that Boycott needs to prove he was a greater batsman than Botham was. Nor do I imagine even Sir Geoff would try to prove himself a greater bowler than Both.

So therefore it's an apples and oranges (or kettles and car-seats if you prefer) situation.
I have no doubt that Geoffrey thinks, and would dearly love to prove, that his oranges are greater than Botham's apples.
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Had Botham ever got his head round the blindingly obvious fact that he was no longer a frontline bowler after 1985 then I believe we might have seen him blossom into a truly great batsman - unfortunately it always seemed a part of his brain thought it was still 1981 ..... until it was too late for him to change
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
The interesting thing is that the last time Botham managed the sort of bowling he'd become renowned for (very, very cheap wicket-taking) was the Mumbai Test of 1981/82. Though his bowling was effective to more than acceptable standards in the summers of '82 and '85, he was less good those series than he had been in his early days and in between them was very ineffective indeed.

However, his batting from '81 to the middle of '84 reached heights he had never attained in the time he was batting '77-'79. But after '84, he went back to the moderate stuff against most teams and continued to be utterly inept against West Indies.

And of course the summer of '87 should've been the last we saw of him at Test level. Had it been, people looking back on first glance at his figures would've gotten a much better impression of just how good he was, even though there'd still be 3 more subdivisions they'd need to do to find the true story.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
Had Botham ever got his head round the blindingly obvious fact that he was no longer a frontline bowler after 1985 then I believe we might have seen him blossom into a truly great batsman - unfortunately it always seemed a part of his brain thought it was still 1981 ..... until it was too late for him to change
True.

But if he had kept himself fit he could have remained a great fast bowler.

In this respect he suffers partly because of the example set by his great contemporaries, Kapil, Hadlee and Imran. Hadlee was still a world-class bowler at nearly 40 in 1990. And remembers how well Imran bowled in England in 1987? - he was still one of the world's finest fast bowlers. By 1987 Botham - almost exactly 3 years his junior - was reduced to the role of lumbering trundler whose only wickets were taken as a succession of batsmen collapsed into their stumps laughing in response to his slow-medium bouncer onslaught.
 

morgieb

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I think he was mistaking flashiness and style for being better probably. Because I guess Mark Waugh is generally considered the more stylish of the two with regards to batting. Steve is easily better, though, over all.
I was refering to potential.
Mark's potenital > Steve's potential
Steve in practise (Tests) >>> Mark in practise (Tests)
Mark in practise (ODI's) >> Steve's in practise (ODI's)
 

morgieb

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Further to my post above, If you strictly consider seasons, from 1993 to 1995-96, he was phenomenal :

Code:
[B][I]Grouping	Span		Mat	Runs	HS	 Ave 	 SR 	100	50[/I][/B]
								
[B]Overall		1993-1996	29	2499	200	 83.30 	 46.28 	7	13[/B]
								
v England	1993-1995	11	761	157*	 63.41 	 46.28 	1	5
v New Zealand	1993-1993	3	216	147*	216.00 	 50.34 	1	0
v Pakistan	1994-1995	5	371	112*	 53.00 	 46.43 	1	2
v South Africa	1994-1994	4	360	164	 72.00 	 52.86 	1	2
v Sri Lanka	1995-1996	2	362	170	 362.00  51.93 	2	1
v West Indies	1995-1995	4	429	200	 107.25  52.76 	1	3
								
in Australia	1993-1996	14	1288	170	 85.86 	 49.08 	5	4
in England	1993-1993	6	416	157*	 83.20 	 43.56 	1	2
in Pakistan	1994-1994	2	171	98	 57.00 	 62.40 	0	2
in South Africa	1994-1994	3	195	86	 65.00 	 49.11 	0	2
in West Indies	1995-1995	4	429	200	 107.25  52.76 	1	3
Fantabulous.
****. Never realised that he was that good in that period. I knew he was very good, but not out-of-this-world during that era.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I was refering to potential.
Mark's potenital > Steve's potential
Steve in practise (Tests) >>> Mark in practise (Tests)
Mark in practise (ODI's) >> Steve's in practise (ODI's)
It's very debateable that Mark Waugh's potential at the longer game was higher than Stephen's. Mark got bored far too easily - it was commented during Brad Haddin's march to 72 (that was where he got when Flynn dropped that sitter) that he could easily have got himself out purely through boredom - not being able and willing to sit on Vettori bowling over-the-wicket and feeling compelled to try to make something happen.

This was almost always inherant in Mark Waugh and it was something that was always going to hold him back. For whatever reason, it never did in Shield cricket (he averaged 61 for NSW between 1987/88 and 2001/02), nor county cricket (averaged all but 60 for Essex), nor in tour-games (averaged over 70 in them) but it did in Tests and it's not surprising.

Stephen's record for NSW was nowhere near so good (he averaged "only" 49 between '85/86 and '03/04) and he hardly played any county cricket in comparison to Mark (just 23 games though he too did brilliantly in these matches). His record for Australian rep teams (Aus B, Aus XI and Aus in tour-games) was less superlative and more merely excellent.

But in Tests he was always the likely better performer and so it turned-out.
 

Briony

International Debutant
It's very debateable that Mark Waugh's potential at the longer game was higher than Stephen's. Mark got bored far too easily - it was commented during Brad Haddin's march to 72 (that was where he got when Flynn dropped that sitter) that he could easily have got himself out purely through boredom - not being able and willing to sit on Vettori bowling over-the-wicket and feeling compelled to try to make something happen.

This was almost always inherant in Mark Waugh and it was something that was always going to hold him back. For whatever reason, it never did in Shield cricket (he averaged 61 for NSW between 1987/88 and 2001/02), nor county cricket (averaged all but 60 for Essex), nor in tour-games (averaged over 70 in them) but it did in Tests and it's not surprising.

Stephen's record for NSW was nowhere near so good (he averaged "only" 49 between '85/86 and '03/04) and he hardly played any county cricket in comparison to Mark (just 23 games though he too did brilliantly in these matches). His record for Australian rep teams (Aus B, Aus XI and Aus in tour-games) was less superlative and more merely excellent.

But in Tests he was always the likely better performer and so it turned-out.
The Mark Waugh 'boredom' is a myth. He played some silly shots to get out, as do most batsmen. But he also went out a lot playing away from his body and beaten by genuinely good balls he was unable to combat. I tire of hearing how much talent he wasted. For many years of his career he continued to make statements that he wanted to average fifty. He tried all right (as he often was at pains to tell us); maybe he just wasn't as good as some people thought. Talent is all about proving you can do it- putting the runs on the board. Potential, as we know, is a dirty and overrated word.

BTW Warne performed much better at test cricket than in Shield and at District level. Arguably he was bored at the lower levels.
 

zaremba

Cricketer Of The Year
The Mark Waugh 'boredom' is a myth. He played some silly shots to get out, as do most batsmen. But he also went out a lot playing away from his body and beaten by genuinely good balls he was unable to combat. I tire of hearing how much talent he wasted. For many years of his career he continued to make statements that he wanted to average fifty. He tried all right (as he often was at pains to tell us); maybe he just wasn't as good as some people thought. Talent is all about proving you can do it- putting the runs on the board. Potential, as we know, is a dirty and overrated word.

BTW Warne performed much better at test cricket than in Shield and at District level. Arguably he was bored at the lower levels.
Graceful attacking players often run the risk of being criticised for laziness / boredom. Gower was another great example. If you live by the waft, you die by the waft. Doesn't mean you're lazy though.

However I don't think anyone would dispute that Steve Waugh was mentally the stronger of the two. And that's not intended as any sort of criticism of Mark.
 

morgieb

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It's very debateable that Mark Waugh's potential at the longer game was higher than Stephen's. Mark got bored far too easily - it was commented during Brad Haddin's march to 72 (that was where he got when Flynn dropped that sitter) that he could easily have got himself out purely through boredom - not being able and willing to sit on Vettori bowling over-the-wicket and feeling compelled to try to make something happen.

This was almost always inherant in Mark Waugh and it was something that was always going to hold him back. For whatever reason, it never did in Shield cricket (he averaged 61 for NSW between 1987/88 and 2001/02), nor county cricket (averaged all but 60 for Essex), nor in tour-games (averaged over 70 in them) but it did in Tests and it's not surprising.

Stephen's record for NSW was nowhere near so good (he averaged "only" 49 between '85/86 and '03/04) and he hardly played any county cricket in comparison to Mark (just 23 games though he too did brilliantly in these matches). His record for Australian rep teams (Aus B, Aus XI and Aus in tour-games) was less superlative and more merely excellent.

But in Tests he was always the likely better performer and so it turned-out.
I was referring to potential in general. Like what we've all said, Steve was a much better player in tests than Mark.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
If you refer to potential in general, one could argue that I, or zaremba, or Richard Hingston, was potentially better than Alec Stewart or Graham Thorpe.

It's a vague term with no real use.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
I don't think so. Perhaps it might be a truth the extent of which is somewhat exaggerated, but I don't think it's a complete myth.
The idea that boredom would affect him at the international level and not at the domestic level seems far fetched. Personally, with Steve Waugh, much like with Nasser Hussain, it was hard to see where he was going to get his next run from at the crease because he batted with hardly any grace and looked completely ill at ease for the most part. I dont know what he looked like when he made his debut but Im sure many wrote him off at the start. Nonetheless, it is testiment to his skills that he succeeded.

As far as Mark is concerned, I have always thought of him as a fairweather player. He played some important knocks for his team but he didnt have the mental fortitude to do as well as his brother when the chips were down.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
The idea that boredom would affect him at the international level and not at the domestic level seems far fetched.
The point I was making was more along the lines that some international bowlers were cut from the right cloth to bore him out, while most domestic ones weren't.
 

Jigga988

State 12th Man
Thought I'd dig up this thread seeing as though the other one has surfaced...

Would like to add the likes of Chris Martin, Mahkaya Ntini and Shiv Cahnderpaul to the list
 

Julian87

State Captain
I have to give James Hopes a mention here.

Very limited in both his bowling and batting, and despite possibly his battng in one day internationals, has well and truly over achieved.
 

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