Chris Harris

[Token]

Mark Richardson anybody?

 

[anzac]

the main problem with the NZ OD side is that there are not enough specialists, particularly batsmen but also the bowlers lack variety & especially control 'at the death'!

This has got to be the reason why the selectors are so preoccupied with 'allrounders', who IMO are really nothing better than bowlers who occaisionally score runs. As a whole they are no where near consistant enough either ad a playing unit or as individuals to merit the 'allrounder' tag.

I would not be surprised if the domestic teams follow the same sort of selection & lineup process, which would go some way to explaining why so many players of FC talent have poor OD averages.

why would you want to promote McCullum to open again - he seems to be settling in down the order and is starting to score some runs. Is he a 1st choice opener in the domestic limited overs games? I understand he can be an explosive batsman with the same impact as a Gilchrist or Sehwag, but he could also be a Boucher type lower in the order. Unless he is a specialist opener in domestic competition I'd leave him be where he is.

 

[anzac]

Mark Richardson anybody?

nope.......sure he is a solid opener and would afford a measure of protection for the middle & lower order, but his natural game is just tooooo defensive for limited overs. If he changed his style he could become vulnerable & loose his greatest strength, yet if he plays his natural game he would put too much pressure on his batting partners to score the runs......

IMO this latter point is one of the reasons behind the failure of established test players in the OD side, esp Fleming as opener recently - they are having to force the pace to score early runs to make up for their partner at the other end - esp Nevin & Harris!

It's been a funny sort of tour for Vincent - he started off looking vulnerable in the tests but his last knock was solid. Then in the ODIs he again started shakily, but again his last knock was solid without any of the fatal improvisaton that so often makes his downfall. Unfortunately for him in both instances he was out to bad umpiring decisions b4 he could really reap the benefits.

 

[anzac]

They wouldn't have a leg to stand on in that regard after some of their squad selections!

yeah but at least those selections had the makeup of a proper team with specialist batsmen & bowlers even if they were plucked from obscurity with little 1st class experience. Not like this potential farce!!!!!

I'm hoping that the selectors will take this opportunity of the extra week to revise the squad and their selections. At this point I don't really care who they name, although I'd prefer to see some new talent as a look to the fututre, rather than a recall for the old stagers in a holding pattern. So long as it is a balanced squad with a proper number of batsmen (more than 4) & bowlers (not 6 or more), and only a couple of their 'allrounders' (not every man & his dog)!!!!!

 

[Tim]

The problem for NZ in the TVS Cup was that it was pretty much expected after awhile that NZ would lose 2 wickets inside the first 5 overs.

There's no way you're going to be able to chase down 240 odd when you are continuously suffering setbacks like that.
Why the hell they promoted Harris to 3 I have no idea because he just seems to slow the run-rate down.

 

[Tim]

Interesting to see that in Auckland's first 3 day match against the NZ Academy, McIntosh scored 96 & put on a 165 opening partnership with another guy named Shane Singe.

Also positive to see that Jesse Ryder took 4-14 on day one.

 

[Richard]

The problem for NZ is that they have a whole load of players that perform well in one game & then flop the next..it makes it difficult to drop a player because as soon as they're under pressure they'll produce something that will keep them in the team for another 3 matches & it goes on & on.

Exactly the problem England have had from about 2001 to now in ODIs; their opponents have lacked the relentlessness neccesary to avoid substandard players getting off-the-hook.
Some examples: Vaughan, Collingwood, Shah, Flintoff, Ben Hollioake (God rest his soul), White, Giles, Blackwell, Solanki, Clarke.
There have been a few others who have simply been persisted with for far too long despite their substandardness being indicated game after game (Hoggard comes to mind).

 

[Richard]

Here is a concerning set of statistics showing a few of NZ's best upcoming batting talent in both OD & FC...some of the FC averages are excellent, but OD averages are extremely poor.

Peter Fulton - FC - 45.52, OD - 18.00
Rob Nicol - FC - 46.12, OD - 16.90
Tim McIntosh - FC - 39.57, OD - 17.91
Jesse Ryder - FC - 60.83, OD - 24.33
Neil Broom - FC - 39.50, OD - N/A
Ross Taylor - FC - 25.50, OD - 11

Now to be fair on those players...all of them have played less than 15 FC matches & OD matches except McIntosh (in FC matches)...so those averages could easily change for better or for worse.
But the trend is the worry, pretty much all of them have poor OD averages.
The FC averages are very good, but if NZ want to be good in ODI's also then those stats are concerning.

Again, this trend is sometimes evident in England - perhaps to slightly lesser extent. Clarke is the best example I can think of; Troughton is another. A bigger problem in England is young players being considered "promising" despite non-stop failure in both forms of cricket, for a fair period of games (7 or 8 and more).
There are too many professionals in England; no-one doubts that, but how to cut staffs is another problem; counties can have 20 or 25 pros, so they do. 2 overseas; it's just ridiculous. You'd think The ECB had money growing on trees the way they let their charges carry-on.
To cut staffs to about 15 pros, 1 overseas, would solve many problems with cash and would also, hopefully, make cricket a more open field which, apparently, it is in all other countries NZ included.

 

[marc71178]

Exactly the problem England have had from about 2001 to now in ODIs; their opponents have lacked the relentlessness neccesary to avoid substandard players getting off-the-hook.
Some examples: Vaughan, Collingwood, Shah, Flintoff, Ben Hollioake (God rest his soul), White, Giles, Blackwell, Solanki, Clarke.

Funny how one of these so-called substandard players is the current number 1 all rounder in ODI's - if that's substandard, then is any player standard?

 

[Craig]

nope.......sure he is a solid opener and would afford a measure of protection for the middle & lower order, but his natural game is just tooooo defensive for limited overs. If he changed his style he could become vulnerable & loose his greatest strength, yet if he plays his natural game he would put too much pressure on his batting partners to score the runs......

IMO this latter point is one of the reasons behind the failure of established test players in the OD side, esp Fleming as opener recently - they are having to force the pace to score early runs to make up for their partner at the other end - esp Nevin & Harris!

Also to boot he is the best of fielders and not the quickest runners between the wickets.

If NZ were to get green seaming wickets, similar to those NZ-India ODI series last season, then Richardson should be considered as he would hold the innings together.

 

[anzac]

The problem for NZ in the TVS Cup was that it was pretty much expected after awhile that NZ would lose 2 wickets inside the first 5 overs.

There's no way you're going to be able to chase down 240 odd when you are continuously suffering setbacks like that.
Why the hell they promoted Harris to 3 I have no idea because he just seems to slow the run-rate down.

that problem / expectation has been going on for much longer than the TVS Cup series........the WC, the Home series v India, the last ICC tourneyment, the VB series in Australia......in all of them the top order has been shuffled & new players introduced in & around the opening position.

Being selected as ODI opener for NZ is almost like a kiss of death, and most players must look at it akin to fielding at silly mid on or forward shot leg or some such!!!!

 

[Rik]

Richardson was tried a year or so ago and didn't come off, I don't expect him to be tried again soon.

 

[Tim]

McIntosh followed up his 96 with a 74 in the second innings.

On the subject of Richardson, I think he is in with a chance to go to Pakistan..NZ really need the extra batsman & he spent plenty of time batting in India recently.

 

[Tim]

Well according to reports the 4 new players picked are:
Richard Jones, Matthew Sinclair, Matthew Walker & Michael Mason.

Interesting to see that Jesse Ryder was a 'serious' option, but the selectors wisely decided to leave him at home.
Andre Adams was also ruled out after injuring his shoulder, he bowled well against the Academy today & returned good figures.

Jones is an interesting selection, I think he is really only a decent FC batsman but the selectors are obviously desperate for players willing to tour Pakistan & both Jones & Sinclair have probably realised this is a good opportunity for them to score runs.

I personally think NZ have waved the white flag at Pakistan & are really only playing this tour so that Pakistan will return the favour in December...the squad still looks unbalanced & it looks as though several of the names in the touring team will miss out when the season starts in a few weeks time here.

It'll be interesting to see how Walker goes, arguably he's jumped ahead of Tama Canning but his stats for Wellington are pretty good. I just hope they don't play him anywhere higher than 7 because at international level I don't think he can really be called an all-rounder, more a bowling all-rounder.

 

[Token]

The teams been named (I don't know if other threads have this because I havn't really explored them as of yet) and the new players are Tama Canning, Craig Cumming, Richard Jones, Hamish Marshall, Michael Mason, Mathew Sinclair, Matthew Walker and Kerry Walmsley.
At least now they have gone for a couple more players in specialist positions i.e. Sinclair, Cumming, Walker, Jones and Marshall (although he bowls a touch doesn't he?) and we also have Michael Mason and Kerry Walsmley as bowlers which shrugs off that negative looking all-rounder team we have.
Oh and at last, some death bowlers! (Hitchcock and Canning!)
The full squad is Cairns, Canning, Cumming, Harris, Hitchcock, Jones, Marshall, Mason, McCullum, Oram, Sinclair, Tuffey, Vettori, Walker and Walmsley.

http://xtramsn.co.nz/sport/0,,3756-2849745,00.html

 

[Tim]

Well bravo for selecting Craig Cumming, but im not sure what Hamish Marshall did to get into the team..I guess he'll relish the chance.

I'd say Jones & Marshall are just stop-gaps unless they really score alot of runs.

Kerry Walmsley was the other interesting one...not too sure how he leap frogged players like Michael Mason but I guess NZ are really just looking for players who are prepared to tour Pakistan I guess.

 

[Richard]

The problem for Fleming though, is that he's been tried pretty much from 1-4 & generally failed in all of those positions and anything lower than 4 is considered to be a bad idea because he can't accelerate his innings fast enough.

I'd also like to see Fleming bat at 4.
Ryder & McCullum would be a good opening partnership should it happen in the future.

Excluding one - very - brief period, Fleming has failed solidly as an opener in ODIs.
At three and four he has averaged in the mid-30s. Not as good as you might hope for for a player of his calibre, but unquestionably better than an opener. For me NZ don't have enough good middle-order players to waste one as an opener. It would be better to simply waste one place with an opener who never scores any runs - just keep dropping them when it gets too many failures. But don't put Fleming to open, nor Cairns, nor McMillan. Even a tail-ender would be better than a decent player.

 

[Tim]

What do you mean we don't have enough good middle order batsmen? Styris, McMillan, Cairns & now Astle who is going to bat lower.

Mate, its 1,2 & 3 which are the problems..so Fleming either opens or bats 3...or Styris goes to 3 & Fleming is dropped to 4.

 

[Richard]

Funny how one of these so-called substandard players is the current number 1 all rounder in ODI's - if that's substandard, then is any player standard?

No, he's not the current number-one all-rounder - a system which attempts to do what it's not possible to do ranks him as such.
Flintoff was substandard for a long while. He kept getting picked, because there was always a very timely performance when another match or two of failure would have seen little option but the axe. Since WC2003 Flintoff's figures have massively improved; runs have come with consistency and accuracy has been translated into economy, because that spell against India had more profile than some of the previous when he got respect. I have never in that period called for his axing.

 

[Tim]

Craig Cumming is another example where he's got a decent FC average 35.36 & a list A of 19.32

I don't think that justifies how good he can be, I think he's developed alot since moving to Otago a couple of years back, and I believe his FC average was way below 30 while he was playing at Canterbury.

It has really only been at Otago that he has started opening the innings, I think at Canterbury he batted no higher than 7 because Canterbury just had too many good players.

Im not sure ODI's is the future for Cumming but he obviously wanted the chance to tour Pakistan when others didn't so you can't blame him for that.