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Chris Harris

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
How long till Astle gets back? If he can just reclaim his place, at the top of the order, it should sort-out some of the mess in the middle; McMillan can move back to three, Fleming to four, and Vincent to five. The only need then will be another specialist opener.
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
Richard said:
Oram had an average of under 25 before this tournament, and thank God he got 1 wicket in the entire thing and went for over 5.5-an-over. That, for me, is a good indicator of a "bad pitch bully", Oram has had a lot of very poor pitches recently (BankAlfalah, World Cup, India ODIs) and has cashed-in. Now he's faced some decent batting on some decent pitches his inaccuracy has been ruthlessly exposed.
As for NZ's best bowler, in ODIs it's Shane Bond without a question, in Tests Vettori equally undoubtedly.
Why is it so great when someone doesn't do well? Why is it "thank god he only got one wicket?" He's a talented bowler and a useful batsman, he's obviously got talent so why is it so great when he doesn't do well? Sheesh I don't like Harmison but I don't wish him to do badly, I just take advantage of it when he does because he's performed badly more times than he has performed well. But wishing failure on someone is like saying Graeme Hick doesn't deserve his 100 FC 100s cause he couldn't make it in Test Cricket...
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Yeah, maybe, but for me Oram failed and then circumstances conspired in his favour. Wanting him to fail is no slight on him, just on those who tried to make him look better than I think he is. I don't really rate him very highly and I hope I'll be proved right.
That's all.:)
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
Richard said:
Yeah, maybe, but for me Oram failed and then circumstances conspired in his favour. Wanting him to fail is no slight on him, just on those who tried to make him look better than I think he is. I don't really rate him very highly and I hope I'll be proved right.
That's all.:)
Well I rate him because he's taken wickets, scored runs and looked a very useful player. I know he's played on some green pitches and also played a few weak teams but he's done everything he's been asked to do and done it well. I don't see a Harmison style bias in his figures, ie performances against weak teams or in conditions which really favour his style of bowling knocking down a really poor record against the top or middle table teams...

Anyway his highest score in ODIs, an innings of 81, was scored against Australia...
 
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Craig

World Traveller
Richard said:
How long till Astle gets back? If he can just reclaim his place, at the top of the order, it should sort-out some of the mess in the middle; McMillan can move back to three, Fleming to four, and Vincent to five. The only need then will be another specialist opener.
Vincent's day's might be numbered IMO.

Young Jessie Ryder who is only 19 might stake a claim in the team.

I dont think they should go back to Horne. He has had enough chances, but hasnt really taken them.
 

Kimbo

International Debutant
Horne hasn't been given another chance in ODIs which surprised me, because .. well at least at provincial level he really is a good one day player, and strikes the ball well.

As far as the circumstances at the moment go... I think I would get Jesse Ryder in the team. Still might be room for Horne though, they could do a hell of a lot worse, If I was matt i would have been well p*ssed of having to watch Nevin opening.
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Surely Ryder should play at least another season of domestic cricket before he is selected. Getting players into the team very young doesn't work a great deal of the time.
 

anzac

International Debutant
As it has been said b4 Astle won't be opening in ODI as a result of the stat that shows he is most productive to the team cause if he can survive past his first 5 overs - his best chance of doing so is not to open!

IMO Fleming will continue to open in ODI with Astle at 3, Styris 4 & Macca at 5.

The more immediate question will be who will they select in the batting line up to go to Pakistan - it could be a good opportunity to try some new blood, but my gut tells me they will opt for previous experience (as they did for the SL tour), so Horne could still find himself gaining further selection at the top of the order along with the likes of Sinclair. Apart from them the ODI batting experience is rather thin unless they turn to "the allrounders" such as Adams & promote Oram higher up the order & play Cairns as a specialist batsman (again).


:(
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Mr Mxyzptlk said:
Getting players into the team very young doesn't work a great deal of the time.
Wow! Someone else has actually noticed that and not denied it! Most people hold desperately onto that stupid idea that it's good to pick teenagers in internationals!:lol: :lol: :lol:
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
anzac said:
As it has been said b4 Astle won't be opening in ODI as a result of the stat that shows he is most productive to the team cause if he can survive past his first 5 overs - his best chance of doing so is not to open!

IMO Fleming will continue to open in ODI with Astle at 3, Styris 4 & Macca at 5.
There are some stupid stats flying around, or rather some stupidly misinterpreted ones...
How on Earth can anyone possibly confuse the stat that anzac phrased - "past his first 5 overs" - for "past the first 5 overs of the game "? It really is stupid how someone can decide to open with a proven failure in Fleming (who is a proven class-act at four and even three) in place of someone who opened for God knows how long and averaged all but 35.
Hopefully the gang that placed value on this crazy piece of information will be beaten down by the usually-logical John Bracewell.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Craig said:
Vincent's day's might be numbered IMO.

Young Jessie Ryder who is only 19 might stake a claim in the team.

I dont think they should go back to Horne. He has had enough chances, but hasnt really taken them.
The shame for me is that Horne has only played 4(?) ODIs since WC99, and he scored a half-century in one of them. He didn't have the greatest of WCs, but he played one invaluable innings and his List-A OD record is pretty good.
Whether Jesse Ryder replaces Vincent is another question - Vincent really is starting to annoy me. He seemed every bit the successor to Twose (Test opener, ODI number-five) for a time and in that 160 (104 and 56?) at The WACA he conquered an attack many have collapsed in the face of.
In the England Tests he scored 2 half-centuries and gave about 12 chances in 6 innings. I don't think I've ever seen anyone play as badly as he did that series.
He did get a century at Motera (or was it Mohali? - Second Test anyway) but yet another abysmal one-day series.
Certainly he must surely be left-out for the next ODI series - just a question of for who. Ryder's one-day record isn't exactly impressive and he has only played 9 games. Any other good one-day batsmen going around in Kiwiland?
 

Craig

World Traveller
None that I can honestly think of.

I agree with you Richard, what is the logic in putting Astle at 3, and this stupid stat, when he has opened for most of his ODI career, scored over 5000 runs there and made 12 of his 13 ODI 100s is quite mystfing.
 

anzac

International Debutant
Richard said:
There are some stupid stats flying around, or rather some stupidly misinterpreted ones...
How on Earth can anyone possibly confuse the stat that anzac phrased - "past his first 5 overs" - for "past the first 5 overs of the game "? It really is stupid how someone can decide to open with a proven failure in Fleming (who is a proven class-act at four and even three) in place of someone who opened for God knows how long and averaged all but 35.
Hopefully the gang that placed value on this crazy piece of information will be beaten down by the usually-logical John Bracewell.
agreed absolutely.......

Just another fine example of how you can 'bend' stats out of context to suit an arguement - 'his first 5 overs' can represent his entire ODI career, whereas 'the first 5 overs' may only represent his time as opener. Selective terminology used depending on what point you wanted to make, and I have heard both terms used at different times by different people in commentary - sometimes during the same match!

Me thinks it has been a stat dragged up from the depths of creative interpretation by the selectors in an effort to 'justify' their continued failed tinkering with the opening positions, despite the fact that NZ's most sucessful opening ODI bat in recent times is still playing but has been put down the order!.

I admit I expect to see some immediate / drastic influence from Braces when he gets his hands on the OD team, as this is where he has had his major sucesses as a coach in England. I have read that he is big on players performing roles for the benefit of the team, rather than for individual careers, so there could be some interesting scenarios ahead.

Who knows we could have Astle / Fleming opening, as neither would be required to dominate the strike to make things happen. Alternatively they may decide to try Styris with Fleming if they can not find a specialist opener & want to maintain Astle at 3. We could see the Test players step up the order & newbies introduced into the gaps rather than being thrown in at the deep end like McCullum was.
 

anzac

International Debutant
As I understand the situation the NZ selectors want openers capable of taking advantage of the fielding restrictions in the first 15 overs and scoring quick runs. IMO this strategy is at the heart of their selection 'policy' / experiments, and is also the reason why the shuffled batting order fails at the top - the search for early runs resulting in players trying to do too much too soon.

In a situation when you are chasing a total this often leads to a batting collapse as we saw in India (even when chasing a moderate total) - even more so when the team is short on genuine batsmen & heavy with 'allrounders'.

IMO another of these oft quoted but misleading 'stats' is the reference that the NZ OD side has a long batting lineup! This 'stat' would appear to have been based upon individual player's top scores rather than their averages. If anything for me NZ have a long lower order & tail as the 'allrounders' do not make sizeable contributions often enough or quickly enough to be considered as genuine depth. I blame this as a result of the pressure from the top order failing on a regular basis.

Currently NZ has only Fleming & Astle with ODI averages above 30 and both are below 35. Only Bangladesh has less with 1, and Zimbabwe is on a par. England has 3, then the rest have at least 5 or 6 with averages above 30, with several players above 40! In contrast the individual stats for the NZ team show them to be on a par with most others regarding players with top scores over 50, & with the number of ODI century makers in the squad & playing regularly.

:(
 
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anzac

International Debutant
IMO the keys to success in OD batting are:
* preservation of early wickets (high run scoring is a bonus);
* the ability to score & accumulate once the fielding restrictions are off & the 'change' bowlers are on;
* at least 1 recognised batsman batting thru into the last 10 overs;
* the ability of the lower order to come in late and force the pace by finding the fence.

NZ have been going into ODI series with only 4 - 5 recognised batsmen in their squad, and often only 4 in their starting lineup. By contrast most teams play at least 5 while India play 7 batsmen, and Australia play 6 (not including 'allrounders' such as Symonds, Bichel, Lee & Harvey). Quite simply NZ need more genuine batsmen in their squad & playing team if they wish to perform with the bat on a regular basis.

Furthermore they should select players whose natural game will fit their desired strategy (or those who at least have the talent to make the adjustment without it having to become a major effort), and who will be able to complement the player at the other end & not force them to improvise too much away from thier respective natural game.

Eg - if they want to score runs quickly then don't select Vincent at the top of the order. Under such a game plan he is better suited to No5, where he can build an innings as he did v India at Christchurch. If they decide to preserve early wickets then perhaps he can be used in a more traditional opening role with the purpose of anchoring the innings & rotating the strike without the need for taking risky improvisations.

The other problem is the NZ bowling attack is too similar & not suited to the last 10 over slog, let alone taking 10 wickets on ODI batting tracks. Bond is the only bowler with penetration to trouble the batsmen, the rest lack either the pace, variation or accuracy to restrict run scoring at the death, or to take wickets on a regular basis to expose the tail early.

:(
 

Craig

World Traveller
I would agree there Anzac, and not just so you will be talking to yourself, but you have it spot on there, except on the idea of Scott Styris opening.

That is doomed for failure.
 

anzac

International Debutant
Don't get me wrong - I'm not particularly a fan of the idea but I think he is the next best thing of the current batsmen to putting Astle back as opener if the selectors persist in this 'protection' theory.

By that I mean he has genuine ability with the bat as well as finding the fence, and he has a better defence against the opening attack rather than Macca (who tends to play like Sehwag against the new ball).

The way he has developed his batting his 'natural' game closest resembles Astle's, and would not cause Fleming to have to dominate the strike & try to score so many boundaries to force the score along early. Vincent gets bogged down & Nevin, Harris etc can only find the edge!

:)
 
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Craig

World Traveller
Well apprantly Matthew Sinclair has been recalled for the tour of Pakistan, so I gather Astle is not fit yet.

I was going to creatanother thread, but I will do it here. The players called up to the NZ squad for the probable tour of Pakistan (that's if it goes ahead) are Matthew Sinclair, Michael Mason, Matthew Walker, and Andre Adams.

Fleming is back in New Zealand recovering on his abdonmal injury and so Ross Taylor or Jesse Ryder are the likely replacements.

The player profile:

Andre Adams-
http://www-aus.cricket.org/link_to_database/PLAYERS/NZ/A/ADAMS_AR_05010316/

Jesse Ryder-
http://www-aus.cricket.org/link_to_database/PLAYERS/NZ/R/RYDER_JD_05044946/

Matthew Sinclair-
http://www-aus.cricket.org/link_to_database/PLAYERS/NZ/S/SINCLAIR_MS_05007410/

Matt Walker-
http://www-aus.cricket.org/link_to_database/PLAYERS/NZ/W/WALKER_MDJ_05010324/

Michael Mason-
http://www-aus.cricket.org/link_to_database/PLAYERS/NZ/M/MASON_MJ_05009992/

Couldnt find Ross Taylor's profile.
 

anzac

International Debutant
saw that list but thought they were only 'probable' replacements.....

just to further illustrate my earlier points re squad selections.....

NZ loose 4 batsmen & 1 bowler - the replacements 1 batsman, 1 bowler, 2 allrounders & 1 undecided!!!!!!

Possible NZ OD squad for Pakistan now looks like this:

Cairns - allrounder
Harris - allrounder
Hitchcock - bowler
McCullum - 'keeper
Mills - bowler
Nevin - makeshift opener
Oram - allrounder
Tuffey - bowler
Vettori - bowler
Sinclair - batsman
Mason - bowler
Walker - allrounder
Adams - allrounder

1 specialist batsman, 1 make shift batsman, 1 'keeper, 5 specialist bowlers and 5 bowling 'allrounders', with 1 YTBA!!!

Team selection ????
Nevin
McCullum
Harris
Sinclair
Cairns
Oram
Adams
Walker
Vettori
Mills
Tuffey

Oh yeah.....I can certainly see this lot threatening to win a ODI in Pakistan - 0-5 whitewash here we come!!!!!

:!( :!( :!(
 

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