Can Steyn test the aussies ?

[Richard]

Expecting Smith to be owned again, England really let him off the hook this summer.

Principally by not appealing for a bottom-edged caught-behind, and being denied a catch down the leg-side.

Smith wasn't troubled by the inswinger any more than you'd expect any left-hander to be last summer.

 

[aussie]

Principally by not appealing for a bottom-edged caught-behind, and being denied a catch down the leg-side.

Smith wasn't troubled by the inswinger any more than you'd expect any left-hander to be last summer.

Can't remeber instances of that series in detail, but outisde of the flat deck @ lord's. But i remember clearly Anderson getting him LBW @ the Oval & saying damn where where those deliveries all summer..

 

[Richard]

Probably being hit off the middle of the bat to the leg-side.

Even a strength can look like a weakness if it hardly ever gets you out and occasionally gets you out.

 

[grapedo]

IM BACK and richard as i can see your contradictory remarks are many the week I haven't been here

 

[Uppercut]

Probably being hit off the middle of the bat to the leg-side.

Even a strength can look like a weakness if it hardly ever gets you out and occasionally gets you out.

Spot on.

 

[Richard]

IM BACK and richard as i can see your contradictory remarks are many the week I haven't been here

Oh how I am looking forwards to the day when you get banned perminantly, as I'm sure is virtually everyone else.

 

[aussie]

Probably being hit off the middle of the bat to the leg-side.

Even a strength can look like a weakness if it hardly ever gets you out and occasionally gets you out.

Its his strenght but its a HUGE WEAKNESS especially when the ball is moving & i'd say he is lucky he didn't counter a full-strenght England attack in the summer. Hoggard exposed it in 2004 & Lee & Clark in the 6 test of the 2005/06 season & i expect it to continue again.

 

[Richard]

Not all batsmen stay the same all career you know. Just because a weakness was a weakness in 2003 doesn't mean it neccessarily will be in 2008.

Not, of course, saying that Smith has neccessarily gotten over that weakness against the inswinger, but I've not seen that much evidence of its continued existance in recent years. His big problem recently has been something which used to be a massive strength - playing at deliveries outside off that should be left.

 

[thierry henry]

Bowlers of Lee and Steyn's relatively short stature

What do you define as short for a pace bowler?

Lee is 187cm, or 6 1 1/2" tall. I would've thought that was a pretty decent sort of height.

 

[Richard]

Lee's never really been what I'd call "tall", though obviously he's not short a la Darren Gough.

 

[aussie]

Not all batsmen stay the same all career you know. Just because a weakness was a weakness in 2003 doesn't mean it neccessarily will be in 2008.

Funny how you could try to defend Smith on this basis & yet to this day can't admit Hayden has gotten over his obvious weakness to the inswinger since the 05 Ashes.

NOTE: Don't take the bait to go into another Hayden argument, lets just wait until the 2009 Ashes is over to make final judgement to see who has been right or wrong...

Not, of course, saying that Smith has neccessarily gotten over that weakness against the inswinger, but I've not seen that much evidence of its continued existance in recent years.

Well the reasons for that are pretty simple for me. He hasn't faced a quality seam attack since AUS 05/06 (give or take on or two good spells by IND & PAK in 06/07). Thus has had an easier time since then.

His big problem recently has been something which used to be a massive strength - playing at deliveries outside off that should be left.

Massive strenght?. Playing deliveries outside off has never been a massive strenght of his.

I'd say as Hoggard & the Australia bowlers have showed it more to be a weakness in a two card where you get it full on his pads risk going for runs if he doesn't miss, then send the wide one outside off which got him out caught in the slips.

 

[Richard]

Funny how you could try to defend Smith on this basis & yet to this day can't admit Hayden has gotten over his obvious weakness to the inswinger since the 05 Ashes.

NOTE: Don't take the bait to go into another Hayden argument, lets just wait until the 2009 Ashes is over to make final judgement to see who has been right or wrong...

There's no guarantee that The Ashes 2009 will see quality inswing bowling from England, none at all.

Incidentally, I've said Hayden's gotten better and I'm not saying Smith has guaranteed himself an inswinger-problem-ridden-free future. Just that Smith's clearly better than he once was and Hayden, well, it remains a weakness.

Well the reasons for that are pretty simple for me. He hasn't faced a quality seam attack since AUS 05/06 (give or take on or two good spells by IND & PAK in 06/07). Thus has had an easier time since then.

New Zealand in the First and Third Tests of 2005/06 was quite a challenge on the surfaces those games were played on, for starters. And he scored twin 60s in the latter game. That was one of his best Test performances.

Massive strenght?. Playing deliveries outside off has never been a massive strenght of his.

No, his massive strength was that he didn't play them. He left them every time, and waited for the bowlers to drift short and onto his body and pads. In the last 2 or 3 years, he's been playing at too many deliveries outside off for my liking.

I'd say as Hoggard & the Australia bowlers have showed it more to be a weakness in a two card where you get it full on his pads risk going for runs if he doesn't miss, then send the wide one outside off which got him out caught in the slips.

As I say, at his best he just leaves near enough anything full outside off.

 

[grapedo]

Oh how I am looking forwards to the day when you get banned perminantly, as I'm sure is virtually everyone else.

Too bad that day will never come I will always be pulling you up for every silly comment you make which is about 90% of your post which I am sure virtually everyone else agrees on too

 

[Richard]

Too bad that day will never come

It will.

I will always be

You won't.

pulling you up for every silly comment you make which is about 90% of your post which I am sure virtually everyone else agrees on too

They don't.

 

[Uppercut]

No, his massive strength was that he didn't play them. He left them every time, and waited for the bowlers to drift short and onto his body and pads. In the last 2 or 3 years, he's been playing at too many deliveries outside off for my liking.

As I say, at his best he just leaves near enough anything full outside off.

I haven't noticed an abundance of overly extravagant drives though, it's more that he plays defensive shots at balls that are missing the stumps.

Agree with you on the idea of leaving everything full outside off bar the easiest of half-volleys, because unlike someone like Andrew Strauss he has enough excellent scoring areas to make up for it. It's amazing how high his average is in tests when he's been widely thought to have an obvious technical weakness for so much of his career. I guess it demonstrates just how strong his strengths are.

 

[Richard]

I haven't noticed an abundance of overly extravagant drives though, it's more that he plays defensive shots at balls that are missing the stumps.

Yep, defensive generally presents far more of a problem than attacking - one of any number of cases was his dismissal to Flintoff at Headingley. The minute he played that ball, it was always going to get him out, it moved the perfect amount to hit the edge and was quick enough that the bat couldn't be pulled away. But he could easily have left it, and it'd have been harmless. There are many other similar deliveries where I've thought "don't play those!" which haven't actually got him out, as well as not a few that have.

However, he does drive at a bit more than I'd like to see him as well.

Agree with you on the idea of leaving everything full outside off bar the easiest of half-volleys, because unlike someone like Andrew Strauss he has enough excellent scoring areas to make up for it. It's amazing how high his average is in tests when he's been widely thought to have an obvious technical weakness for so much of his career. I guess it demonstrates just how strong his strengths are.

Well - and to an extent, much as I hate to say it, the weakness of bowling-attacks in the last 7 years. Had Smith played in the 1990s I doubt he'd have done extraordinarily well, though I do think he'd have done better than I consider Matthew Hayden would have.

 

[aussie]

There's no guarantee that The Ashes 2009 will see quality inswing bowling from England, none at all.

I'd say its pretty likely from Anderson, Sidebottom & Flintoff of all people. But even if that isn't the case the Saffies will be testing him before he comes here.

Incidentally, I've said Hayden's gotten better and I'm not saying Smith has guaranteed himself an inswinger-problem-ridden-free future. Just that Smith's clearly better than he once was and Hayden, well, it remains a weakness..

Have seen no evidence that Smith is clearly better than he was once, but Hayden has erased his demonds since the Oval test.

New Zealand in the First and Third Tests of 2005/06 was quite a challenge on the surfaces those games were played on, for starters. And he scored twin 60s in the latter game. That was one of his best Test performances.

Taking your word on things is always dangerous, but i will here because i ain't able check. But did Bond play?. If he didn't it doesn't help your argument here.

No, his massive strength was that he didn't play them. He left them every time, and waited for the bowlers to drift short and onto his body and pads. In the last 2 or 3 years, he's been playing at too many deliveries outside off for my liking.

As I say, at his best he just leaves near enough anything full outside off.

To put simple on flat decks when bowlers aren't getting it to swing, Smith is unstoppable through the leg-side.

But when it swingining it becomes a weakness, plus outside off-stump as he tries to find scoring oppurtunies in an area where he usually leaves deliveries alone.

 

[Richard]

I'd say its pretty likely from Anderson, Sidebottom & Flintoff of all people. But even if that isn't the case the Saffies will be testing him before he comes here.

Only Anderson and Steyn of the bowlers in question are bowlers who particularly excel at the inswinger to the LHB. And the ball hasn't swung very much in Australia in recent years, so I don't expect him to be tested greatly there.

Have seen no evidence that Smith is clearly better than he was once

Well you haven't been looking hard enough then. Smith has barely been dismissed by an inswinger (or even a straight ball that doesn't swing, something he fell to once or twice in 2005/06 especially) in recent times.

but Hayden has erased his demonds since the Oval test.

He hasn't actually, you could quite clearly tell that by the 2006/07 Ashes.

Taking your word on things is always dangerous, but i will here because i ain't able check. But did Bond play?. If he didn't it doesn't help your argument here.

No, he didn't. However, Franklin, Mills, Martin and Oram did, and such an attack is quite a handful on surfaces like those two.

To put simple on flat decks when bowlers aren't getting it to swing, Smith is unstoppable through the leg-side.

But when it swingining it becomes a weakness, plus outside off-stump as he tries to find scoring oppurtunies in an area where he usually leaves deliveries alone.

Most to all left-handers struggle against the ball that swings sharply back into them. Smith, now, doesn't struggle to any massive degree against it, no more than most left-handers do.

 

[grapedo]

It will.

You won't.

They don't.

Haha then why are you the main person who gets into arguments > conducted a survey to find out have you

 

[Polo23]

Well Southee just destroyed the Australian top order and he bowls with a similar method to Steyn. Pitch it up and swing it. Obviously Steyn is 10-15k's quicker and probably a little less accurate..but i'm sure if Steyn was watching today he would have been encouraged.