Can SA topple Australia ?

[tooextracool]

Haha Vettori, possibly the most over-rated Test bowler of the last 10 years.

The guy averages 36 or something against Test standard nations. Newsflash - he isn't that good.

It doesnt help that he spends the vast majority of his career bowling on those minefields in NZ. If he was bowling in England I would be very surprised if his average wasnt at least in the low 30s, Id expect it to be in the 20s tbh. As it stands he completely outclassed Monty Panesar when he came over to England this summer.

 

[Richard]

Dan Cullen???

That's news to me when did he develop a doosra, and if that's the case why the hell isn't he in the squad for India.

Thought he had a Doosra TBH, maybe he doesn't.

 

[Uppercut]

He could be better, but I don't see anything to suggest he could extract any more turn than he does. If he were to make impovements to his game, it'd be in his use of loop and drift - this'd hopefully mean he could tie knots around good as well as moderate to poor players of spin on turning pitches (and yes Jack, MSP can turn the ball on pitches that some fingerspinners wouldn't, but there's still a great deal that he can't turn it on much) but it'd not make him any better on the sorts of non-turners he's been ineffective on.

Nah, even Harbhajan and Saqlain needed a turning pitch to be effective. It was just, at their best, they were almost impossible to stop from getting a stack of wickets if you got on a turner. Because not only did they turn their Off-Break big and have an alternative delivery, but they were skillful flight bowlers as well. Both have in recent times lost some of that flight skill, and it's impacted upon their effectiveness in Tests (and Saqlain indeed has lost more than that and these days struggles in English domestic FC and OD cricket where once he ripped to shreds).

Apart from Saqlain and Harbhajan, there's no-one who's capable of bowling the Doosra who's all that good. There's a few low-level bowlers (Daniel Cullen, Shaftab Khalid, Johan Botha) who've reputedly developed it to some extent, but none are Test-class bowlers or close to. Not even sure Shaftab is still in the game, haven't heard of him for a good few years.

Indeed, the point that finger-spinners can only be effective on certain surfaces is one you labour to make often. I was just questioning the thought that Panesar and Vettori are as effective as finger-spinners can be expected to be. Do you think Mendis will be widely successful on the majority of pitches? Or do you consider him a sort of semi-legspinner?

 

[pup11]

Indeed, the point that finger-spinners can only be effective on certain surfaces is one you labour to make often. I was just questioning the thought that Panesar and Vettori are as effective as finger-spinners can be expected to be. Do you think Mendis will be widely successful on the majority of pitches? Or do you consider him a sort of semi-legspinner?

He is freak of nature, so expect him to cause havoc on every possible surface.

 

[Richard]

Indeed, the point that finger-spinners can only be effective on certain surfaces is one you labour to make often. I was just questioning the thought that Panesar and Vettori are as effective as finger-spinners can be expected to be.

I think both have touched the limit, though they remain (yes, Vettori too) to manage a standard which keeps them pushing, keeping at that limit rather than of times dipping below.

Do you think Mendis will be widely successful on the majority of pitches? Or do you consider him a sort of semi-legspinner?

I've yet to see him bowl, but I'm led to believe he can bowl pretty well every spinner's (finger and wrist) delivery - and that the ball which has caused most problems is the one that doesn't side-spin at all. So I wait to see.

 

[pup11]

Thought he had a Doosra TBH, maybe he doesn't.

If he was capable of bowling doosra he would have been in the Aussie squad by now, he doesn't even have a decent top-spinner either, he is more or less like Powar in the way he bowls, gives the ball plenty of air and bowls in the right areas but he is pretty light on variations.

 

[Perm]

It doesnt help that he spends the vast majority of his career bowling on those minefields in NZ. If he was bowling in England I would be very surprised if his average wasnt at least in the low 30s, Id expect it to be in the 20s tbh. As it stands he completely outclassed Monty Panesar when he came over to England this summer.

Away average - 33.35, and that includes two tests in Bangladesh where he took 8/54 and 12/170.

He is a mediocre spin bowler, but obviously the best New Zealand have. He isn't a 'strike bowler' or 'major attacking weapon' as people seem to think, he's just an average spinner.

 

[Uppercut]

Away average - 33.35, and that includes two tests in Bangladesh where he took 8/54 and 12/170.

He is a mediocre spin bowler, but obviously the best New Zealand have. He isn't a 'strike bowler' or 'major attacking weapon' as people seem to think, he's just an average spinner.

Without Bond, he's gotta be the pick of the bowlers there. Would get in the England, South Africa and Australia sides for sure- not many NZers you can say that about.

 

[sledger]

Wouldn't get in the Australia side imo.

 

[JimmyGS]

Wouldn't get in the Australia side imo.

Maybe if he was in the Aussie squad, Symonds would stand a chance at learning how to play him!

The way Aussie's spin reserves are looking at the moment, Vettori would definitely be in the team I'd say.

 

[pasag]

He would quite easily as would Monty, probably even Harris.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Dan Cullen???

That's news to me when did he develop a doosra, and if that's the case why the hell isn't he in the squad for India.

Same reason Loudon doesn't play for England.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

He would quite easily as would Monty, probably even Harris.

Disagree on Harris, but yeah the other two would. In fact Vettori would be a pretty nice pickup.

Obviously depends how McGain goes, though. Things could change.

 

[Perm]

Vettori's hypothetical inclusion in the Australian side, and that of Panesar (and IMO Harris) highlights the lack of decent spin bowlers in Australia more than anything else. It's certainly not an indicator of the quality of the spinners we're talking about.

 

[morgieb]

Nah, even Harbhajan and Saqlain needed a turning pitch to be effective. It was just, at their best, they were almost impossible to stop from getting a stack of wickets if you got on a turner. Because not only did they turn their Off-Break big and have an alternative delivery, but they were skillful flight bowlers as well. Both have in recent times lost some of that flight skill, and it's impacted upon their effectiveness in Tests (and Saqlain indeed has lost more than that and these days struggles in English domestic FC and OD cricket where once he ripped to shreds).

Murali is a finger-spinner and averages around 22-23. Does that make him a liability on non-turners?

 

[sanga1337]

Murali is a finger-spinner and averages around 22-23. Does that make him a liability on non-turners?

Watch a video of Murali bowling and you'll see hes much more like a wrist spinner.

 

[pup11]

Watch a video of Murali bowling and you'll see hes much more like a wrist spinner.

TBH, the guy has got rubber wrists.

 

[Richard]

Murali is a finger-spinner and averages around 22-23. Does that make him a liability on non-turners?

Erm - no. Murali isn't, never has been and never will be a fingerspinner. He spins the ball far more than anyone relying principally on the fingers will ever be able to do.

 

[Uppercut]

Vettori's hypothetical inclusion in the Australian side, and that of Panesar (and IMO Harris) highlights the lack of decent spin bowlers in Australia more than anything else. It's certainly not an indicator of the quality of the spinners we're talking about.

Yeah, but Vettori would definitely get in the England and South Africa sides too considering his all-round ability compared to that of Harris and Panesar. And he'd be in my ODI world XI without hesitation. He's really a rather useful player.

 

[pup11]

Yeah, but Vettori would definitely get in the England and South Africa sides too considering his all-round ability compared to that of Harris and Panesar. And he'd be in my ODI world XI without hesitation. He's really a rather useful player.

I think Vettori is rather underrated because his stats really don't make one sit-up and take notice, imo had he been playing for a sub-continental side one could have expected him to have much better stats then he has now in both forms of the game, lets be fair to him, New Zealand hardly play much test cricket and on top of that whenever they play at home they prepare a green pitch where a cattle can be grazed or they make a predominantly fast-bowler friendly track.

Even with all that he has held his own in international cricket, the best left-arm spinner in both forms the game for me.