Can SA topple Australia ?

[aussie]

Richard makes a good point about finger spinners. Historically not many have been able to be as effective as wristspinners especially since unconvered wickets ceased to exit.

 

[Uppercut]

Yeah, pretty much always agreed with him on this one. Fingerspinner's averages mean next to nothing.

 

[GIMH]

So does that mean we should judge Brett Lee, Steve Harmison and Dale Steyn (three random examples) purely by success on seaming wickets?

Because that's the same???

 

[Uppercut]

Haha Vettori, possibly the most over-rated Test bowler of the last 10 years.

The guy averages 36 or something against Test standard nations. Newsflash - he isn't that good.

I'm a big fan of Vettori, i think he's excellent, at least in the context of other fingerspinners. He's not exceptional- unlike in ODIs and T20s, where he's incredible even on flat surfaces- but he's good.

What his average over the past ten years says to me (if anything) is that he wasn't always as good as he is now.

 

[JimmyGS]

I'd be inclined almost towards the opposite, judging bowlers on how they perform when the conditions don't suite them as opposed to when they do. When the conditions aren't in his favour, I would have Vettori in the team any day of the week ahead of Panesar and Harris.

 

[Richard]

That's as maybe, but none will offer any significant threat.

It's like saying you'd rather have 50-120-3 than 30-85-2. Or, worse, 13-29-0 rather than 7-19-0. No thanks, in either scenario - give me a seamer.

There's just no point playing fingerspinners unless the conditions suit them. And when they do, that's when you find-out who's best.

 

[Uppercut]

That's as maybe, but none will offer any significant threat.

It's like saying you'd rather have 50-120-3 than 30-85-2. Or, worse, 13-29-0 rather than 7-19-0. No thanks, in either scenario - give me a seamer.

There's just no point playing fingerspinners unless the conditions suit them. And when they do, that's when you find-out who's best.

Vettori should still be the first name on the NZ team sheet though. A completely different proposition to Panesar in that he can bat, field, bowl defensively as well as anyone in the world, pick up the odd wicket through variation and flight on flat pitches, and IMO he's a pretty good captain. And he's not vying with Jones, Sidebottom and Harmison for a place.

 

[Richard]

Yeah, Vettori is pretty well into the all-rounder (or bits-and-pieces player under some circumstances) category these days - aside from as his captaincy, which does indeed look decent. I'd not argue with him playing every Test for NZ - but if he was playing purely as a specialist bowler I would. Likewise if NZ had, say, a fully-fit Bond, Tuffey, Oram, Mills and Southee at their disposal (purely hypothetical - they don't and never again will have).

 

[Uppercut]

Yeah, Vettori is pretty well into the all-rounder (or bits-and-pieces player under some circumstances) category these days - aside from as his captaincy, which does indeed look decent. I'd not argue with him playing every Test for NZ - but if he was playing purely as a specialst bowler I would. Likewise if NZ had, say, a fully-fit Bond, Tuffey, Oram, Mills and Southee at their disposal (purely hypothetical - they don't and never again will have).

I can't imagine Vettori's captaincy will ever look better than decent given they'd still have one of the greatest captains there is if NZ cricket hadn't ballsed up their man-management.

 

[pup11]

I can't imagine Vettori's captaincy will ever look better than decent given they'd still have one of the greatest captains there is if NZ cricket hadn't ballsed up their man-management.

AWTA.

 

[Briony]

I expect us to prevail but a lot will depend on how Steyn and Morkel adapt to our pitches and if they can stay fit. Harris never looks much chop but at least doesn't get pasted as a rule. He may extract more bounce from out pitches, something he can do, than what he could in Asia and England. We've certainly lost some important players but our depth is superior to SA. Smith did get chances in England, didn't he take five catches in the last test? He is fat though.

 

[Richard]

Smith's catching wasn't a problem on the last tour - it was the rest of the cordon, and even the ring-fielders.

 

[Briony]

I think SA's ground fielding was the thing which surprised me, it has declined in both ODIs and tests of late yet they used to close to the best fielding team going around. Maybe too many fatties.

 

[Jono]

No. Seamers and fingerspinners aren't the same thing. Outstanding seamers can prevail on any surface. Outstanding fingerspinners cannot. On far more surfaces than not, even a good fingerspinner like MSP or Vettori has negligable chance of causing problems to good batsmen and should not be selected.

An 'outstanding' finger spinner can prevail on any surface.

Just that Harris, Monty and Vettori aren't outstanding.

 

[pup11]

An 'outstanding' finger spinner can prevail on any surface.

Just that Harris, Monty and Vettori aren't outstanding.

I won't put Vettori in the same bracket as Monty or Harris, Vettori is arguably the best left arm orthodox spinner during his time, his control and accuracy are fantastic, something that makes him an effective bowler on virtually on every surface, even if the wicket isn't assisting him he is more than capable of keeping things tight and exerting pressure.

 

[Richard]

An 'outstanding' finger spinner can prevail on any surface.

Just that Harris, Monty and Vettori aren't outstanding.

Go on then - who can be or is better?

Vettori and MSP are both about as good a fingerspinner as anyone can reasonably expect, IMO.

 

[Uppercut]

Go on then - who can be or is better?

Vettori and MSP are both about as good a fingerspinner as anyone can reasonably expect, IMO.

You say that, but MSP could be so, soo much better than he is now.

Also, Harbajahan perhaps? Any of the doosra-bowling offies? Not saying I agree- just wondering what your thoughts are.

 

[Uppercut]

I won't put Vettori in the same bracket as Monty or Harris, Vettori is arguably the best left arm orthodox spinner during his time, his control and accuracy are fantastic, something that makes him an effective bowler on virtually on every surface, even if the wicket isn't assisting him he is more than capable of keeping things tight and exerting pressure.

AWTA. In fact, I wouldn't put Monty in the same bracket as Harris either.

 

[Richard]

You say that, but MSP could be so, soo much better than he is now.

He could be better, but I don't see anything to suggest he could extract any more turn than he does. If he were to make impovements to his game, it'd be in his use of loop and drift - this'd hopefully mean he could tie knots around good as well as moderate to poor players of spin on turning pitches (and yes Jack, MSP can turn the ball on pitches that some fingerspinners wouldn't, but there's still a great deal that he can't turn it on much) but it'd not make him any better on the sorts of non-turners he's been ineffective on.

Also, Harbajahan perhaps? Any of the doosra-bowling offies? Not saying I agree- just wondering what your thoughts are.

Nah, even Harbhajan and Saqlain needed a turning pitch to be effective. It was just, at their best, they were almost impossible to stop from getting a stack of wickets if you got on a turner. Because not only did they turn their Off-Break big and have an alternative delivery, but they were skillful flight bowlers as well. Both have in recent times lost some of that flight skill, and it's impacted upon their effectiveness in Tests (and Saqlain indeed has lost more than that and these days struggles in English domestic FC and OD cricket where once he ripped to shreds).

Apart from Saqlain and Harbhajan, there's no-one who's capable of bowling the Doosra who's all that good. There's a few low-level bowlers (Daniel Cullen, Shaftab Khalid, Johan Botha) who've reputedly developed it to some extent, but none are Test-class bowlers or close to. Not even sure Shaftab is still in the game, haven't heard of him for a good few years.

 

[pup11]

He could be better, but I don't see anything to suggest he could extract any more turn than he does. If he were to make impovements to his game, it'd be in his use of loop and drift - this'd hopefully mean he could tie knots around good as well as moderate to poor players of spin on turning pitches (and yes Jack, MSP can turn the ball on pitches that some fingerspinners wouldn't, but there's still a great deal that he can't turn it on much) but it'd not make him any better on the sorts of non-turners he's been ineffective on.

Nah, even Harbhajan and Saqlain needed a turning pitch to be effective. It was just, at their best, they were almost impossible to stop from getting a stack of wickets if you got on a turner. Because not only did they turn their Off-Break big and have an alternative delivery, but they were skillful flight bowlers as well. Both have in recent times lost some of that flight skill, and it's impacted upon their effectiveness in Tests (and Saqlain indeed has lost more than that and these days struggles in English domestic FC and OD cricket where once he ripped to shreds).

Apart from Saqlain and Harbhajan, there's no-one who's capable of bowling the Doosra who's all that good. There's a few low-level bowlers (Daniel Cullen, Shaftab Khalid, Johan Botha) who've reputedly developed it to some extent, but none are Test-class bowlers or close to. Not even sure Shaftab is still in the game, haven't heard of him for a good few years.

Dan Cullen???

That's news to me when did he develop a doosra, and if that's the case why the hell isn't he in the squad for India.