Black caps-2nd in the world?

[thierry henry]

We're certainly a better test side than India, that's for sure. Sheesh, one drawn series and everyone forgets that they've been crap for years.

 

[marc71178]

I wouldn't say NZ are a better side than India.

I'd rate them about the same, and it would depend on who stepped up and had the key performance in any particular game for me.

 

[Mingster]

I just dont think they have the depth to match up with the top sides consistently , particularly with the bat.
Some pretty promising youngsters coming through , Jesse Ryder seems to be the most hyped of them.
As well as Marshall whos taken to the top level like a fish to water & Papps who threatens to do the same.

Like Tim said, you obviously don't follow or have seen any of the domestic games this season. I don't think it's fair for you to judge then. Ryder is not the most hyped up of them all. I guess you haven't heard of Ross Taylor or Peter Fultons' success this season.

However generally there isnt a lot of batting talent floating around the Kiwi Isles , the domestic sides are full of allrounders , many of them regularly playing only 5 or even 4 specialist batsman.

Bloody hell. I think I have argued this point before and might have to do it again...

I don't know whether you are talking about the OD game or 4-dayers. But Auckland plays 6 batsmen + WK in 4-day and 5 batsmen + 1 WK in the One dayers. And that applies for every single team apart from Northern Districts.

Get your facts right mate.

There are to many batsman who have been able to dominate the domestic scene in recent years yet who have been shown up as substandard at international level (Spearman , Horne & Mills who averages 40 odd at FC level yet cant get higher than 9 in the ODI side).

When has Spearman dominated the scene this year consistently? He didn't even average over 30 in this year's competition while there were a list of players averaging much higher than him. Your point is invalid, Spearman averaged over 60 in County Cricket last year, so you might as well say the standard is England is worse.

So you expect Mills to bat higher than McCullum, Oram and Vettori? Mate. Seriously. Even though he has an average over 40, it doesn't mean he's better than the above batsmen mentioned.

To many of the incumbent batsman at test level are underperforming consistently yet they are being retained because there is quite simply no one better to fill their boots (McMillan , Vincent , etc)

Id disagree that the domestic comp is pretty strong now , I think its the weakest of the big 8 (the test nations excluding Ban & Zim) with the exception of Sri Lanka.

Um. Right. McMillan? He averages over 42 in Test cricket. That's hardly bad considering the conditions in NZ. Vincent? He's about to be dropped.

Oh yeah. So NZ has the weakest domestic comp of the Top 8 but still manages to be many of the sides in the Top 8...how ironic aye? :rolleyes:

 

[BlackCap_Fan]

to be the 2nd best team in the world u have to win series' home and away. in the tri series in india nz won just one game, is that a hallmark of a great side?i think not.

That was then.This is now.

I think that if Fulton,Ryder & Taylor can have another good season or 2,they can have a great shot at the NZ squad,in front of Mcmillan,that is if he doesn't stop being ridiculously inconsistant.

 

[Craig]

Indeed, I'd even stretch it to any team except Aus, Bang and Zim.

I wouldnt say Australia is impossible to beat. A tough ask yes, but certainly beatable, especially in ODIs.

 

[Choora]

That may be true, but...



...if this is your logic then you're nuts. Are you saying that NZ can't be that good?

Sorry mate i was just retaliating to BC's uncalled for remarks on India.

Interestingly he claims that NZ must be second best coz they defeated Pak in a series, when the fact is that they lost to Pak in the test series played both in Pak and NZ, and if he's talking about ODI, then NZ lost to Pak 5-0 in Pak and won the Onedayers 4-1 in NZ.

If India beat Pak in Pak (which they will) then India should have a better chance of becomming the third best team in the world .

 

[Gaijin-san]

raising

Rising

 

[Craig]

Your not a member of the grammer police are you?

 

[Tim]

I think you can forget about that 5-0 series loss in Pakistan last year....that was a NZ 'A' team at best & a few of the players in that squad are well down the pecking order in terms of representing NZ again.

NZ certainly will have an aggressive batting lineup in a few years, but whether players like Ryder, Taylor etc can transform their powerful game to the top level is another matter.

 

[Tim]

If you look at it this way....Both Pakistan & South Africa sent what they believed to be their top current group of players to NZ.
Pakistan fans may argue that Saqlain wasn't there but that's Pakistan's problem really..he's fit so it's just a selection issue.

NZ have now beaten Pakistan 4-1 & South Africa 4-1 (with 1 game to go) without their best ODI batsman Nathan Astle & Shane Bond. If that had been the case 3 or 4 years ago..NZ would have been thumped 5-0 by both Pakistan & South Africa, NZ are developing some depth I think.

 

[Choora]

I think you can forget about that 5-0 series loss in Pakistan last year....that was a NZ 'A' team at best & a few of the players in that squad are well down the pecking order in terms of representing NZ again.

.

I Knew someone will say this,fact is that its not ur opponents fault that some of ur playes didn't tour Pak, besides we all know that NZ first choice 11 would have met the same fate playing in Pak and facing Akhter.

If still not contend,just look at NZ's recod in sub con:saint:

 

[Tim]

I never said it was anyone else's fault...NZ sent an average squad & got an average result. It's as simple as that.

 

[Choora]

I never said it was anyone else's fault...NZ sent an average squad & got an average result. It's as simple as that.

Yeah, but the result would have been almost the same had they sent their best squad. Infact in the previous ill fated tour, NZ's team wasn't that weak but got hammered at the hands of Pakistan.

 

[Tim]

That may have been so, but it didn't happen that way so get over it...NZ seem to have.

 

[Choora]

That may have been so, but it didn't happen that way so get over it...NZ seem to have.

Mate i've no special interest in that series, its just that BC was claiming that NZ should be regarded as second best coz of their victory over India and Pak, that i mentioned that!

 

[Tim]

oh come on, couldn't you realise how ridiculous that statement was?

there is no clear 2nd placed team at the moment.

 

[Mingster]

I think you can forget about that 5-0 series loss in Pakistan last year....that was a NZ 'A' team at best & a few of the players in that squad are well down the pecking order in terms of representing NZ again.

But the bowling attack was exactly the same for that team.

We were thrashed over there, no doubt. Our batting did not lose us the game, our bowling did.

 

[marc71178]

I wouldnt say Australia is impossible to beat. A tough ask yes, but certainly beatable, especially in ODIs.

When at full strength I wouldn't be so sure (how many in a row did they win?!)

 

[marc71178]

Yeah, but the result would have been almost the same had they sent their best squad.

Could've been - there's no certainty - I can't have seen it being 5-0 if that were the case.

 

[iamdavid]

What do you base that on? Any evidence to back that up? And I dont think you can say our comp is weaker then WI and Pakistan's.

I can assure you the standard is raising.

As stated its an opinion , I dont need to provide evidence to justify my opinions to you.

As for Pakistan , although the orginisational side of things in their domestic comp is nothing short of a joke....the administrators are idiots....you'd find the actual standard of cricket being played out on the feild is still suprisingly high , there is an awful lot of talent floating around in Pakistan , and if the men in charge spent less time arguing & more time developing that talent they would go a hell of a long way.
As for the West Indies , yeah Id agree the NZL domestic comp is marginally stronger , in other words I rate it as the 6h best comp in the world , still behind Australia , England , South Africa , India & Pakistan.
Now patriotism aside would you honestly say the standard of cricket played domestically in New Zealand is higher than the standard in any of those 5 aforementioned nations???

When has Spearman dominated the scene this year consistently? He didn't even average over 30 in this year's competition while there were a list of players averaging much higher than him. Your point is invalid, Spearman averaged over 60 in County Cricket last year, so you might as well say the standard is England is worse

Note that I said "in recent years" & not "this year".
Spearman has consistently been one of the better batsman on the NZL domestic circuit for a number of years , yet he has been shown up as palpably substandard at test level....which is the point I was originally trying to make.

So you expect Mills to bat higher than McCullum, Oram and Vettori? Mate. Seriously. Even though he has an average over 40, it doesn't mean he's better than the above batsmen mentioned.

I think the fact a man who manages to average over 40 in the domestic comp is still considered by the men in charge to be an inferior batsman to McCullum , Vettori & Oram (Oram would be doing very well to average 30 at test level & the other two would be flattered by averages of 25) really illustrates my point brilliantly.

Um. Right. McMillan? He averages over 42 in Test cricket. That's hardly bad considering the conditions in NZ. Vincent? He's about to be dropped.

Very true....

But beleive it or not I was actually refering to the shorter form of the game , where McMillan is

a)incredibly inconsistent

b)has a pretty ordinary record at both domestic & international level.

ODI carear 3462 runs @27.04

List A carear 5961 runs @29.36

Against Australia in 22 matches he has made just 418 runs @20.9 , against South Africa in 27 matches he has made just 502 runs @20.91.
In his 15 world cup matches he has made just 278 runs @18.53.

Now for a top order batsman that hopeless in any conditions it suggests to me that when the pressure is really on (against the two best teams & in the big tournaments) , he is more often that not found wanting.

Oh yeah. So NZ has the weakest domestic comp of the Top 8 but still manages to be many of the sides in the Top 8...how ironic aye?

a)I said they were the 6th best , not 8th best

b)Their record on the subcontinent is hopeless....no excuses

c)the reason they perform well is they are a very well led side , great captain & a mentally tough team behind him.
Great support staff off the feild.

I wouldnt say Australia is impossible to beat. A tough ask yes, but certainly beatable, especially in ODIs.

Of course they arent impossible to beat.....just much harder to beat than any one else.