Better captain in test cricket?

[Thala_0710]

One of Jardine or Taylor

 

[kyear2]

Imran won overseas in Eng and Ind. Unlike Llyod who got steamrolled 5-1 in Aus, he faced a superior no.1 team in WI home and away and held his own.

Lloyd's black washing is entirely due to resources he had at his disposal not captaincy acumen.

Lloyd united the WI side but Imran had a far more difficult task to unite the Pakistan side.

This is so damn overstated.

Do you think it was easy to unite the side?

Besides the differing personalities there was the very real fractions between differing countries, not regions, countries. With governments, boards and the like.

He played in an era where there were local boycotts if players from certain countries didn't play.

Picking players and bringing a team together isn't an especially difficult skill, if you can't then you're just bad. Imran gets the benefit because he's compared to the horrible captains that came before him, but we're not grading on a scale.

Imran presided over the most horrific levels of ball tampering that occured in the sport. And that's before we factor in that he passed it down.

Get that, not only did he practice it, but ensured it would continue.

Not to add, he was also in charge during the tail end of what was most shambolic period of biased home umpiring that was witnessed in cricket.

No other cricketer would get a pass for those things.

At the end of the day, neither was tactically anywhere near Taylor, and that (and winning) is what really is what separates the great from the good. You have to be great tactically.

 

[kyear2]

I don't rate Lloyd in the absolute top echelon honestly. Great leader and the 4 man pace attack worked wonders, but his tactics were a bit rigid as far as I got to know.

None of the two of them, nor Richards were great captains.

 

[kyear2]

In a certain era, Taylor could have been picked in a world XI for captaincy alone.

He's the only one that I saw that was excellent in all aspects of the game and can be seen as a positive factor.

 

[subshakerz]

Picking players and bringing a team together isn't an especially difficult skill, if you can't then you're just bad. Imran gets the benefit because he's compared to the horrible captains that came before him, but we're not grading on a scale.

Unlike you, I give credit to Lloyd for uniting his side. You don't for Imran despite Pakistan being notoriously the most divisive and fractitious side in history.

You bash him for ball tampering but never give credit for introducing neutral umpires. Your double standards and bias are blatant despite Imran being universally hailed as a great leaders, even by great captains like Chappell and Benaud.

At the end of the day, neither was tactically anywhere near Taylor, and that (and winning) is what really is what separates the great from the good. You have to be great tactically.

Disagree. Cricket is not just tactics. But I rate Taylor ahead of them.

 

[subshakerz]

In what metric or by argument is Imran better than Lloyd.

Neither were great captains, but what the argument for Imran over Lloyd. One took a team that was being pummelled to the greatest of all time.

Imran united a more difficult team.

Imran selected and groomed youngsters who became stars.

Imran took a less strong team and made them competitive in a way they had never been, including standing up to tougher opposition. Lloyd had a team by 79/80 anybody could have captained.

 

[sayon basak]

Neither were great captains.

Who are great captains according to you?

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Viv had a weaker and aging team without the pace quartet hence not the same dominance.

Nah. Viv had a peak Marshall, Best years of Garner, Holding averaged 24 in 85-86, peak of Bishop (averaged 20.5 in 89-90), Walsh and Ambrose.
He didn't had Roberts and Croft but gets almost nullified by peak garner, peak Bishop, Walsh, Ambrose and peak Marshall (Lloyd only got peak Marshall by the end of his career) and West indies never lost a series under Richards.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Viv couldn't get the reputation but he held similar results though.

Viv got a strong team which was built by Lloyd so he had less burden to worry about the strategies as Lloyd had already set them

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Imran united a more difficult team.

Imran selected and groomed youngsters who became stars.

Imran took a less strong team and made them competitive in a way they had never been, including standing up to tougher opposition. Lloyd had a team by 79/80 anybody could have captained.

anybody could have captained is exaggeration. Yes, even if Taylor (GOAT according to you) would have captained West Indies he wouldn't have the burden of determining the strategies since the West Indies based on their own quality was capable of winning, but does mean Taylor was not a good captain? It is just because he seldom needs any strategies. But who was the one who built those initial strategies... for them to carry forward? that is what makes Lloyd as a captain superior in comparison with Imran. selecting youngsters in West Indies which is divided by different countries is far difficult than in Pakistan...
Also building confidence among a team to become the top of world when their countries had many political problems with the other countries relating to racism.

To become an ATG Captain one must become captain of a weak team and make it strong definitely deserves applauds, but fixing that as a threshold is too much

 

[capt_Luffy]

That might be a joke/pity vote.

No reason really. Mark Taylor was a brilliant strategist

 

[Cricket Bliss]

That might be a joke/pity vote.

sorry, not underestimating Taylor...but was just mentioning that because subs told Taylor is the GOAT... yes he is great and is considered GOAT by many... didn't mean that only subs considers him as GOAT. I also consider him as elite.

 

[govinda indian fan]

Mark Taylor

 

[capt_Luffy]

Viv got a strong team which was built by Lloyd so he had less burden to worry about the strategies as Lloyd had already set them

Agreed. One of the biggest reasons I rate Lloyd significantly higher. But as I said, I also felt Lloyd's tactical strategies were a bit rigid.

 

[subshakerz]

It is just because he seldom needs any strategies.

If Llyod seldom needed those strategies that shows how easy it was to captain a team of all stars.

selecting youngsters in West Indies which is divided by different countries is far difficult than in Pakistan...
Also building confidence among a team to become the top of world when their countries had many political problems with the other countries relating to racism.

To become an ATG Captain one must become captain of a weak team and make it strong definitely deserves applauds, but fixing that as a threshold is too much

Anything you give credit to Lloyd here just applies moreso to Imran. If you are suggesting that WI was as fractitious a team as captain historically, I don't think that is true at all.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

If Llyod seldom needed those strategies that shows how easy it was to captain a team of all stars.

Lloyd was the one who developed those strategies for the West Indies to carry forward after which after which he himself or any other person captaining has seldom things to worry about.

Anything you give credit to Lloyd here just applies moreso to Imran. If you are suggesting that WI was as fractitious a team as captain historically, I don't think that is true at all.

There was a lot of political turmoil in the US and Caribbeans during the 60s. Many of the caribbean nations got independence during the 60s. Martin Luther King was shot dead. Muhammad Ali threw away his gold medal won during the 1960 Olympics as he witnessed racism...
'There were great Cricketers, but they were not winning combinations' - Colin Croft in Fire in Babylon
'Across Caribbean accent is different, food is different, you experience a variety of things across different islands, we all come from different backgrounds and to mold them into a unit is never gonna be easy' - Gordon Greenidge in Fire in Babylon
'You have to have someone who can keep all those people together' - Michael Holding in Fire in Babylon

Only common thing was racism..not even location... Guyana was in South America were as rest were in North America

There were ups an downs in the caribbean cricket until the mid 1970s until a bunch of youngsters with Clive Lloyd came in... They were experiencing racism in the mid 70s when they were asked to tour to England... (not just grovel...but the african immigrants living in England was also facing negative reception from englishmen).... Lloyd built the confidence.... Designed the way the way the West Indians were to play till the end of the next decade.

 

[Johan]

From all I've read he was so damn negative and defensive. His first objective was not to lose.

The Duke of Wellington of Cricket

 

[Coronis]

From all I've read he was so damn negative and defensive. His first objective was not to lose.

Tbh losing is also the outcome I’d least want to occur for my team.

 

[subshakerz]

There was a lot of political turmoil in the US and Caribbeans during the 60s. Many of the caribbean nations got independence during the 60s. Martin Luther King was shot dead. Muhammad Ali threw away his gold medal won during the 1960 Olympics as he witnessed racism...
'There were great Cricketers, but they were not winning combinations' - Colin Croft in Fire in Babylon
'Across Caribbean accent is different, food is different, you experience a variety of things across different islands, we all come from different backgrounds and to mold them into a unit is never gonna be easy' - Gordon Greenidge in Fire in Babylon
'You have to have someone who can keep all those people together' - Michael Holding in Fire in Babylon

Only common thing was racism..not even location... Guyana was in South America were as rest were in North America

There were ups an downs in the caribbean cricket until the mid 1970s until a bunch of youngsters with Clive Lloyd came in... They were experiencing racism in the mid 70s when they were asked to tour to England... (not just grovel...but the african immigrants living in England was also facing negative reception from englishmen).... Lloyd built the confidence.... Designed the way the way the West Indians were to play till the end of the next decade.

Dude you are really stretching it, Lloyd didn't conquer institutional racism he just helped build a cricket team.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Dude you are really stretching it, Lloyd didn't conquer institutional racism he just helped build a cricket team.

No. I just meant Lloyd not only build the team but also built the confidence in the team.. By confidence i mean there was lack of confidence due to racism especially while touring to England…