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Best Test Wicket-Keeper Batsman

Who is the best Test wicket-keeper batsman?


  • Total voters
    79

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
What we think is deserving of a test and what is a test can be two totally different things. You don't have to think Bangladesh deserve test status and you don't have to think performances against them mean anything, but if you say someone has X test wickets or has a test batting average of Y, you can't disclude them, as you're then simply just wrong.

As you know, I agree with you for the most part about matches against Bangladesh counting for little, but for someone who is so pedantic about the difference between batting positions one and two, you hold little regard for the difference between what is fact and what you think should be fact.

If you're going to take Bangladesh out when arguing about a player's performance, that's fine, but you have to say so. MacGill has taken 198 test wickets. Sure, only 150 odd of them may actually be of any relevance when judging how good a test player he actually is, but he still has 198 test wickets whether you or I think he should or not. We're all quite capable of judging for ourselves what should and should not be a test, but we don't have the authority or power to decide what is and is not a test. We're capable of deciding what is relevant and what isn't, which is why I typically take Bangladesh out of any analysis I do, but I'd never state that they weren't test matches, because they are. Some test matches aren't particularly relevant when judging a player, but they are still test matches.
I've not once said that they're not Tests in I$C$C terms; just that they don't deserve the status. If I had my way I'd strip them of said status.

It is fact that I$C$C class Bangladesh as Tests; it's not fact that those games will be so forever more - we might one day get someone with some sense who puts some real emphasis on the point of status in games of cricket and classifies them to the closest to perfect extent possible.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
I've not once said that they're not Tests in I$C$C terms; just that they don't deserve the status. If I had my way I'd strip them of said status.
Yeah, I really have no problem with that and, in essence, I agree. I think it gets a bit much when you post things like this for example, though. You really should include the words "against test standard teams" in there, as McCullum actually averages 32.13 in test cricket. I agree that his average against test standard teams of 26.12 is of more significance, but I disagree that you can just state that is his average without actually saying how you arrived at that. I know you provided a link in that example but you don't always do so and it still rubs me the wrong way, even though I essentially agree with your point.
 

Matt79

Hall of Fame Member
Quite frankly, you're not completely off the mark when you say I like maximum neatness of statistical record. There's no point in having different classifications resulting in different sets of stats if you don't make them as good as you possibly can.
There are often times these days when I think it would be preferable if no stats were kept at all, beyond the scorecards during the game (although these would of course not be stored in a searchable format anywhere).
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Yeah, I really have no problem with that and, in essence, I agree. I think it gets a bit much when you post things like this for example, though. You really should include the words "against test standard teams" in there, as McCullum actually averages 32.13 in test cricket. I agree that his average against test standard teams of 26.12 is of more significance, but I disagree that you can just state that is his average without actually saying how you arrived at that. I know you provided a link in that example but you don't always do so and it still rubs me the wrong way, even though I essentially agree with your point.
Understandible, and I should make more of an effort to do so. Similar things rub me the wrong way too.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
There are often times these days when I think it would be preferable if no stats were kept at all, beyond the scorecards during the game (although these would of course not be stored in a searchable format anywhere).
Once scores are kept in one game, cumulations are unavoidable.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
His wicketkeeping was decent enough to keep George Duckworth out of the side most of the time, but his batting-average is actually a touch deceptive - he was almost - and I say, almost - the Hayden of his day.
Interesting reasoning?. Never got that idea about Ames from what i've read about him..
 

Perm

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Not sure what you've read but look at his team-by-team averages-breakdown.
And this is relevant to Hayden in what way? The man scored 380 and 101* against Zimbabwe, but hasn't really done much else against Test minnows.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
His wicketkeeping was decent enough to keep George Duckworth out of the side most of the time, but his batting-average is actually a touch deceptive - he was almost - and I say, almost - the Hayden of his day.
Bashed poor attacks on flat-tracks? Or are we saying he was great here? ;)
 

Craig

World Traveller
Look I'm not that silly to see that Zimbabwe should not have Test status, the spineless ICC won't allow to it, and I think Bangladesh are improving, but I just hate selective stat picking, the way I see if you were to use that logic then somebody like Martin Love has only played three Tests and has never scored a Test 100 because his last two Tests were against Bangladesh (actually I thought they played a lot better then what I thought they would and a lot of positives came from it) and in the Cairns Test he got a ton, but going off the theroy used by Richard then it proves my point.

Look I know I will forever disagree with you on this Richo, but for me Test cricket is Test cricket, it was played and listed as a Test and like it or lump it it is counted in a player's overall stats.
 

Olwe

School Boy/Girl Captain
The Best Keeper Batsmen of all time is Alec Stewart OBE , he was one of england best players ever, and i think he was England best ever keeper with knott in second, he is englands most ever capped cricketer ever, scored 8463 runs @ 40.06 with a top score of 190 and he has reccond number of caches of 263. in first class cricket for surrey he has scored a high of 271* against a yorkshire in 1997
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
England's best wicketkeeper-batsman beyond doubt AFAIC. But best ever? Sadly not. Who knows, however, what might have happened had he been given the gloves full-stop in 1993?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Look I'm not that silly to see that Zimbabwe should not have Test status, the spineless ICC won't allow to it, and I think Bangladesh are improving, but I just hate selective stat picking, the way I see if you were to use that logic then somebody like Martin Love has only played three Tests and has never scored a Test 100 because his last two Tests were against Bangladesh (actually I thought they played a lot better then what I thought they would and a lot of positives came from it) and in the Cairns Test he got a ton, but going off the theroy used by Richard then it proves my point.

Look I know I will forever disagree with you on this Richo, but for me Test cricket is Test cricket, it was played and listed as a Test and like it or lump it it is counted in a player's overall stats.
Sorry, as far as I'm concerned I don't have to accept everything I$C$C tell me, and I can use my own intelligence to make-up my mind about what should and shouldn't have Test-status.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
And this is relevant to Hayden in what way? The man scored 380 and 101* against Zimbabwe, but hasn't really done much else against Test minnows.
No, not substandard sides. Ames only played a couple of games against New Zealand IIRR.
Bashed poor attacks on flat-tracks?
More like it. His average against the weaker teams was far, far higher than his average against Australia.
 

neville cardus

International Debutant
The Best Keeper Batsmen of all time is Alec Stewart OBE , he was one of england best players ever, and i think he was England best ever keeper with knott in second, he is englands most ever capped cricketer ever, scored 8463 runs @ 40.06 with a top score of 190 and he has reccond number of caches of 263. in first class cricket for surrey he has scored a high of 271* against a yorkshire in 1997
Even without the benefit of those startlingly impressive statistics, I have to agree that Stewart is one of England's most underrated players ever. I wouldn't place him at the top of the pile, though.
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
The Best Keeper Batsmen of all time is Alec Stewart - he was England best ever keeper with knott in second
He wasn't even the best wicket at Surrey for most of the time let alone England, he was about 50% of Alan Knott on a good day.
 

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