Agent Nationaux
International Coach
Watching Yousuf play against spin was amazing.
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Best players of spin bowling in test matches you have seen live
- Thread starter weldone
- Start date
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
Awesome post.
The differences in style that you have spoken about may also show why Sachin was, to a slight degree, more comfortable against extreme pace than Lara. The time you get for decisive feet movement against real pace is very very less and even a nanosecond could cost you your wicket or an injury. Sachin, given his penchant to play off the track and stay more balanced, was better equipped to survive and nudge them around than a Lara, esp. against the really quick bouncers.
That said, I think Lara was just as slightly better when attacking the real quick bowlers, again due to having more decisive footwork. In fact, if not for the penchant of keeping two men back for the bouncer, I think you would have seen a very different Lara with the hooks and stuff. Yet another reason I think they should not allow more than one guy deep behind square on the leg side. It has taken the hook shot out of the game...
Xuhaib
International Coach
thought he was decent without being box office. Younis Khan imo is our best spin player since Javed Miandad. Misbah can also dead bat any spinner on any track for 5 whole days.
weldone
Hall of Fame Member
awta
Outswinger@Pace
International 12th Man
I don't know what the reason is. There's a batsman who has dominated Warne and Murali at their peak. Some shots he played - particularly a reverse swept six off Murali - were almost arrogantly dismissive in an outrageous manner. The same guy struggles to lay bat on ball against Paul Harris and Rangana Herath. How does one explain that?
Outswinger@Pace
International 12th Man
Unquestionably. Miandad and Zaheer are the only two Pakistani batsmen that belonged in the same league as Malik, as far as playing spin is concerned.
Spark
Global Moderator
I think you've mixed up KP and Clarke there
- although Paul Harris have both bizarrely given them issues
weldone
Hall of Fame Member
Zaheer Abbas was most probably the best from Pakistan ever (against spin), though I haven't seen him live.
Outswinger@Pace
International 12th Man
I was indeed talking about KP there. Just an example I offered on a related note. Should have articulated better, perhaps.I think you've mixed up KP and Clarke there
Outswinger@Pace
International 12th Man
From old vids and expert opinions, I think it's very difficult to make a case for any Pak batsman being better than Zaheer in this department. Miandad could end up close or maybe just even with Zed, but unlikely that many would regard him as better.
Let's not forget that Zaheer was the guy who dismantled the famed spin quartret and hounded them out of test cricket. And his mercilessness came on decks that were friendly to their brand kind of bowling.
weldone
Hall of Fame Member
Absolutely. Nobody played the Indian spin quarlet even half as well as Zaheer Abbas. He DEMOLISHED them. He had some heavenly series against India. Despite not playing Kapil Dev too comfortably (Kapil took his wicket the most - 8 times!), he had a Bradman-esque record against India (1740 runs @ 87). Some of the attacking centuries he made against that famed quarlet makes him one of the best demolishers of spin ever - not only from Pakistan, but from across the globe.
HowSTAT! Player Progressive Batting
...especially this series against Bedi, Praz and Chandra (583 runs @ 194.33)
http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Players/PlayerProgressBat.asp?PlayerId=0003&Series=0214
They didn't maintain the 'balls faced' stat back then, but from what I've heard from my father he scored boundaries at will. In that series, he made the Indian spinners look like club cricketers.
I'm sure someone like SJS can give us a vivid description from that series, and Zaheer Abbas' spin-play in general.
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weldone
Hall of Fame Member
Given that SJS rates Zaheer Abbas as the best Pakistani batsman he has ever seen, I don't see any reason he'll rate Miandad as a better batsman against spin.
I am sure it is not Zaheer's exploits against West Indian pacers that impressed SJS
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SJS
Hall of Fame Member
Yes I do rate Zaheer very high among Pakistani batsmen and if he had a problem with any type of bowling it was with pacers. Against spinners he was awesome. His footwork was exemplary and classical.
He is said to have finished the careers of Chandra, Prasanna and Bedi when India toured Pakistan in the late 70's after almost two decades. scoring almost 600 runs in the three test series he averaged close to 200. It must be said that Miandad too averaged in the 170's while scoring over 300 runs. But it must be remembered that the three spinners WERE at the end of their careers. Prasanna was in his 39th year and did not play again. Bedi and Chandra were in their mid thirties and played a couple of more series.
When he next came to India, Kapil had just become India's spearhead and he owned Zaheer who averaged under 20.
Interestingly, of the 20 times he lost his wicket against India, the spinners in this spin dominated team got his wicket only 6 times.
An interesting thing is the very high conversion rate he had against India. He crossed fifty 9 times against India and converted 6 of them to hundreds, really big hundreds. Thus for us the key always was to try and get him before he got settled.On nine occasions India got his wicket early (before he crossed the 30's). Here are his scores in these innings and the bowlers who got his wicket . . .
No, one did not find him having any issues against Indian spinners. He did seem to have a problem early on with the outgoing delivery and ended up edging it behind the stumps or to the slips.
There wasn't much spin around in the world outside India. The major forces were Australia and West Indies and they were pace dominated. There isn't any evidence to show that he was anything but first class against spinners. Whatever criticism one has read of his batting, it has been about some issues with fast stuff. I remember reading something by Lillee to that effect.
The difference between him and Miandad is not how they played spin but in the opverall game. Zaheer's batting was classical English style. Beautiful movement and flowing drives off the front foot. He was very difficult to dislodge when set and played all the strokes in the game very gracefully. He was the most stylish batsman in the sub-continent in the 70's and 80's. His cover drive received the highest praise possible - a comparison with Hammond's ! He really placed his off drives and invariably hit them through gaps,
Miandad was a 'manufactured' batsman by which I mean he appeared untutored and played by instinct. He was not orthodox and no one could call him stylish but he was very effective and innovative. I think where he scored over Zaheer was in his mental strength. Zaheer played long innings once he got set on the strength of his game, Miandad did it with sheer determination and a refusal to get out. He was one of those who would make sure he had his pad in front of the stumps as a second line of defence. The number of lbw decisions he got were much higher than others. He might complain about the umpiring but the fact is that Zaheer rarely offered his pads as a defence and played cleanly with his bat.
The differences between them could be seen clearly when they batted together. Zaheer looked a class above.
He is said to have finished the careers of Chandra, Prasanna and Bedi when India toured Pakistan in the late 70's after almost two decades. scoring almost 600 runs in the three test series he averaged close to 200. It must be said that Miandad too averaged in the 170's while scoring over 300 runs. But it must be remembered that the three spinners WERE at the end of their careers. Prasanna was in his 39th year and did not play again. Bedi and Chandra were in their mid thirties and played a couple of more series.
When he next came to India, Kapil had just become India's spearhead and he owned Zaheer who averaged under 20.
Interestingly, of the 20 times he lost his wicket against India, the spinners in this spin dominated team got his wicket only 6 times.
An interesting thing is the very high conversion rate he had against India. He crossed fifty 9 times against India and converted 6 of them to hundreds, really big hundreds. Thus for us the key always was to try and get him before he got settled.On nine occasions India got his wicket early (before he crossed the 30's). Here are his scores in these innings and the bowlers who got his wicket . . .
- 3 (Kapil),
- 2 (Binny)
- 11 (Kapil)
- 5 (Kapil)
- 0 (Kapil)
- 15 (Kapil)
- 13 (Kapil)
- 22 (Madan)
- 26 (Madan)
No, one did not find him having any issues against Indian spinners. He did seem to have a problem early on with the outgoing delivery and ended up edging it behind the stumps or to the slips.
There wasn't much spin around in the world outside India. The major forces were Australia and West Indies and they were pace dominated. There isn't any evidence to show that he was anything but first class against spinners. Whatever criticism one has read of his batting, it has been about some issues with fast stuff. I remember reading something by Lillee to that effect.
The difference between him and Miandad is not how they played spin but in the opverall game. Zaheer's batting was classical English style. Beautiful movement and flowing drives off the front foot. He was very difficult to dislodge when set and played all the strokes in the game very gracefully. He was the most stylish batsman in the sub-continent in the 70's and 80's. His cover drive received the highest praise possible - a comparison with Hammond's ! He really placed his off drives and invariably hit them through gaps,
Miandad was a 'manufactured' batsman by which I mean he appeared untutored and played by instinct. He was not orthodox and no one could call him stylish but he was very effective and innovative. I think where he scored over Zaheer was in his mental strength. Zaheer played long innings once he got set on the strength of his game, Miandad did it with sheer determination and a refusal to get out. He was one of those who would make sure he had his pad in front of the stumps as a second line of defence. The number of lbw decisions he got were much higher than others. He might complain about the umpiring but the fact is that Zaheer rarely offered his pads as a defence and played cleanly with his bat.
The differences between them could be seen clearly when they batted together. Zaheer looked a class above.
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SJS
Hall of Fame Member
I meant, he looked a classier batsman allthough stats dont always go for classier looking batting :-)/
I think if Zaheer had been mentally as strong as Miandad was then his figures would have been even more impressive. Plus I suspect Miandad played fast bowling better and it was an era of great fast bowlers. This weighed in favour of Miandad in matter of actual performance and results I guess.
SJS
Hall of Fame Member
It is like seeing Mark and Steve waugh brothers batting together. Not a perfect example but you get the drift