Best current international captain

[AndrewM]

What are people's opinions on the best captain in international cricket today? As far as i can see, Fleming and Ponting are the standouts, with Fleming being the better improviser and the most tactically astute as far as planning goes. Ponting is more of a "doer", whereby he leads the way with his own performances, a la Martin Crowe. Fleming has in the past not necessarily been the best player on the team, but has grown to be both a doer and a talker at various times.

Michael Vaughan must surely rate a mention as well, transforming the English test team into a very successful unit in the past 18 months. However his record as a captain in one-day cricket is not nearly as successful, which is why i separate him with Ponting and Fleming.

However Fleming edges Ponting in my book with his sheer creativity and innovation, greater experience both personally and off others and the responsibility that he carries at the moment as the team's best batsman and captain as well.

Also, Ponting has simply jumped on the horse that was winning while Fleming has brought his from the depths of 1994 to a formidable unit.
Anyone's thoughts? Maybe a different captain from these suggestions?

 

[Blaze]

Fleming for sure

 

[AndrewM]

What are your reasons mate? I personally agree btw.

 

[Scallywag]

Fleming for sure

When you look at Flemings time as captain of NZ the win loss ratio has not improved in the time fleming has captained NZ and in fact the win loss ratio has dropped slightly in the last 30 odd tests. If Fleming was getting more out of his players you would expect the win loss ratio to improve while he was captain. This has not happened and the NZ team has just rolled along over the last 70 tests without improving their win loss ratio.

 

[Scallywag]

When you look at Flemings time as captain of NZ the win loss ratio has not improved in the time fleming has captained NZ and in fact the win loss ratio has dropped slightly in the last 30 odd tests. If Fleming was getting more out of his players you would expect the win loss ratio to improve while he was captain. This has not happened and the NZ team has just rolled along over the last 70 tests without improving their win loss ratio.

To give you a better idea of what I am talking about Vaughan has had a steady improvement in the win loss ratio since becoming captain. Englands win loss ratio has slowly increased to around 4 while the whole time NZ's win loss has remained very static at 1 and just dropping below 1 in the last couple of tests.

 

[AndrewM]

When you look at Flemings time as captain of NZ the win loss ratio has not improved in the time fleming has captained NZ and in fact the win loss ratio has dropped slightly in the last 30 odd tests. If Fleming was getting more out of his players you would expect the win loss ratio to improve while he was captain. This has not happened and the NZ team has just rolled along over the last 70 tests without improving their win loss ratio.

The last 70 tests! Thats 8 years of international cricket! Have you seen how many players he has used in that time! A whole generation of players have come and gone and now we are consolidating again. Win loss ratio is inconsequential in that period of time. Consider this: out of the 8 series victories New Zealand has won away from home (in our history), Fleming has achieved three of them. And he was 23 years of age upon receiving the captaincy, New Zealand's youngest test captain ever. Ponting was 28, the same thing with Vaughan. So you can only realistically base it on the last 5-6 years of play.

 

[Scallywag]

The last 70 tests! Thats 8 years of international cricket! Have you seen how many players he has used in that time! A whole generation of players have come and gone and now we are consolidating again. Win loss ratio is inconsequential in that period of time. Consider this: out of the 8 series victories New Zealand has won away from home (in our history), Fleming has achieved three of them.

What the win loss shows you is in the whole time Fleming has captained NZ they have not improved as a team .

You did state that "Ponting simply jumped on the horse that was leading the race, while Fleming has moved his horse from the back to near the front."

Well I'm telling you that NZ have not improved in the time Fleming has been captain.

I would be interested in knowing when where and how NZ have improved over the last ten years.

 

[Eclipse]

Ponting..

Would have said Feming a few years ago but he hasn't really stood out as a captain in my eyes since the world cup.. The tactics he used on players like Damien Martyn drew him a lot of prase but they basicly only worked for the one series and since then i havn't seen a great deal of his innovation become particuarly succsesful

 

[Eclipse]

those figures don't really indicate that he's had a lot of succsess how ever you look at them..

how many series have been played against bangladesh and Zim in that time btw ?

 

[Scallywag]

Fleming's complete test record as captain:
Won 27%, drawn 36%, won 37%. 0.71% win/loss

since 1998
Won 32%, drawn 33%, lost 35%. 0.90% win/loss

Point proven.

Proven what?

1998 Flemings win loss ratio before Sri lankan series 1.67

2005 Flemings win loss ratio 0.96

So as you can see the NZ win loss ratio has slowly dropped since 1998.

 

[Scallywag]

Fleming's complete test record as captain:
Won 27%, drawn 36%, won 37%. 0.71% win/losssince 1998
Won 32%, drawn 33%, lost 35%. 0.90% win/loss

Point proven.

BTW that is wrong.

 

[AndrewM]

i guess not point proven, but Australia have had a group of bowlers that have been consistently playing for the last 8 years, McGrath and Warne being the mainstay. That surely has to work in Ponting's favour. The turnover of bowlers Fleming has had to deal with is farcical. Statistics are often misleading btw, especially in cricket. They are not always a true indication of a side's progress/ development. You have to agree that New Zealand have come a long way and improved as a unit since 1994.

Actually disregard those facts, they are an inaccurate piece of information.

 

[age_master]

Ponting, because you should pick the playere before the captain and Ponting would make any world XI whereas Fleming wouldn't.

and as has been said Fleming hasn't been as good the last few years.

 

[AndrewM]

Ponting, because you should pick the playere before the captain and Ponting would make any world XI whereas Fleming wouldn't.

Thats not right mate, you are looking at the player dimension rather than the captaincy side of things. And any world XI has an element of festivity anyway, it is irrelevant to argue that. Your captain should be first picked, and have the group of players around accordingly. No use picking all your players and then sticking a captain in on the end of it. Thats just sillyness.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

As far as I can see, there are three standout captains in world cricket today. Fleming for his tactical innovation and one great triumph as a captain (leading New Zealand on a highly successful tour of Australia), Vaughan for his role in transforming England from a fairly mediocre side into an excellent one, and Ponting for the way he has managed to take an already strong Australian side and shift it up another gear in ODIs, and it seems after a great effort in Sri Lanka in particular he has managed it in tests as well.

Fleming is an excellent captain, but has limited resources to work with and hasn't been able to squeeze much extra out of his team in tests of late, but in ODIs he has bound New Zealand together into an excellent team unit, and Vaughan's achievements speak for themselves. I'd probably rate Fleming the most accomplished captain in the world currently, but Vaughan isn't far behind and the Ashes is the big test of just how far he has brought England along. Ponting is underrated as a captain I feel, but isn't quite in the same league as Fleming and Vaughan in terms of tactical innovation. He's more a lead-from-the-front sort of captain. I actually think there are two better captains playing in the Australian team currently in Warne and Gilchrist, but with Warne's off-field dramas and Gilchrist behind the stumps, they haven't been able to lead.

 

[AndrewM]

As far as I can see, there are three standout captains in world cricket today. Fleming for his tactical innovation and one great triumph as a captain (leading New Zealand on a highly successful tour of Australia), Vaughan for his role in transforming England from a fairly mediocre side into an excellent one, and Ponting for the way he has managed to take an already strong Australian side and shift it up another gear in ODIs, and it seems after a great effort in Sri Lanka in particular he has managed it in tests as well.

Fleming is an excellent captain, but has limited resources to work with and hasn't been able to squeeze much extra out of his team in tests of late, but in ODIs he has bound New Zealand together into an excellent team unit, and Vaughan's achievements speak for themselves. I'd probably rate Fleming the most accomplished captain in the world currently, but Vaughan isn't far behind and the Ashes is the big test of just how far he has brought England along. Ponting is underrated as a captain I feel, but isn't quite in the same league as Fleming and Vaughan in terms of tactical innovation. He's more a lead-from-the-front sort of captain. I actually think there are two better captains playing in the Australian team currently in Warne and Gilchrist, but with Warne's off-field dramas and Gilchrist behind the stumps, they haven't been able to lead.

Point well made mate.

This will be the true test of Vaughan's captaincy ability.

 

[chaminda_00]

Micheal Vaughan for sure, has done more for the English team then Fleming or Pointing have done for their respective sides, if we are talking Test Cricket. When you look at the Australia team their major improvement resently was winning in India and Gilchrist was the captain, so that either shows that anyone can captain the Australia team or that Gilly is a better captain then Pointing. Top captains IMO are:
1. Vaughan
2. Fleming
3. Ponting
4. Inzi
5. Ganguly
6. Bashar
6. Chanderpaul
7. Atapattu
8. Smith
10. Taibu

A bit unfair to rate Taibu last but i rate captains on their abilty to improve their team and win games. Other situation have meant that Zim haven't improved under him, so it not really his fault.

 

[King_Ponting]

My top three captains
Ponting
Fleming
Vaughan

IMO the captain has to set the example both with the bat and in the feild, hence me picking ponting as the best.

 

[chaminda_00]

My top three captains
Ponting
Fleming
Vaughan

IMO the captain has to set the example both with the bat and in the feild, hence me picking ponting as the best.

If that was true then Tendulkar should have been one of the best ever captains

 

[King_Ponting]

Sorry as well as having the mental brilliance and stategical thinking required to outsmart the opposition