Battle of the Test captains

[Jono]

How do you know he performed badly if they won?

Hypthetical; similar to 434 chase

SA need 40 runs to win from 3 overs with 2 wickets remaining. Mick Lewis has bowled 8 overs for 88 runs. Boucher is in with Andrew Hall, Boucher batting beautifully on 65. Ponting decides to bowl Mick Lewis. Lewis bowls the 48th over and gets spanked for 20 runs. Lee bowls the 49th over and gives away 5, leaving 15 needed for a win.

Ponting decides to bowl Mick Lewis again, and he gets carted early in the over. Eventually Boucher needs to hit 6 from the last ball. He manages to smash Lewis over his head, but only for a boundary.

Australia win by 1 run. Lewis ends up with 121 runs from his 10 overs. All hail Ponting?

 

[silentstriker]

Ponting decides to bowl Mick Lewis again, and he gets carted early in the over. Eventually Boucher needs to hit 6 from the last ball. He manages to smash Lewis over his head, but only for a boundary.

Australia win by 1 run. Lewis ends up with 121 runs from his 10 overs. All hail Ponting?

Thats the thing - you never know. They might have lost if he bowled someone else. If you win, you can't second guess most decisions because what he tried...worked. If he had lost, then you can second guess and say he should have done this or that.

I'll take my captain 'almost losing' everytime, because that means I'm undefeated .

I know I'm probably the only person on CW who thinks this, but I think Ponting gets flak because he doesn't have a likable personality and does boneheaded things sometimes.

The only way to be sure who's the best captain would be to give every captian in world cricket the same team and see who comes out ahead. Other than that, W/L is the only thing you can judge.

 

[silentstriker]

Vaughn is a good captain because he is a 7-2-1 in the series he has captained (I believe thats the number). And he also beat the best team in the world.

The only down thing you can say about Ponting is that he lost one series against the second best team in the world. Thats fair enough, but I'll take 11-1 any day of the week, for any team, ever.

 

[Jono]

No point even having this battle then.

We may as well just vote the best batsman in world cricket as who has been a part of a winning team the most. As after all, we can't judge the batsman on how we think they batted. So Tendulkar is far from the best batsman in tests because he barely wins anything, in the same sense that Fleming is far from the best captain in tests, because he barely wins anything.

 

[silentstriker]

No point even having this battle then.

We may as well just vote the best batsman in world cricket as who has been a part of a winning team the most. As after all, we can't judge the batsman on how we think they batted. So Tendulkar is far from the best batsman in tests because he barely wins anything,

Well for batting/bowling, you have stats. Runs scored, centuries scored, conversion rates, averages, strike rates, attacks faced, etc.

What do you have for captaincy?

in the same sense that Fleming is far from the best captain in tests, because he barely wins anything.

You're right, he isn't anywhere near the best.

 

[Jono]

Well for batting/bowling, you have stats. Runs scored, centuries scored, conversion rates, strike rates, attacks faced, etc.

Going by your theory, whats the point of scoring runs if you don't win?

 

[silentstriker]

Going by your theory, whats the point of scoring runs if you don't win?

None, but you are still a good batsman if you do. I.e you can measure it. If sachin had scored a duck or 141, India would still have lost, so his contribution is meanignless. But you can measure that contribution.

If you could devise statistics that measure a captains contribution, like you measure a batsman, then I'd welcome it and change my opinion.

 

[aussie]

Taylor best skipper i've seen since in my time of watching cricket.

 

[Xuhaib]

What seperates a good captain from an ordinary captain.

1. If he (the cpatain) can make an ordianary team perform above themselves e.g Fleming and Kardar
2. If he can turn a good team in to a great team e.g Waugh, Lloyd
3. If he can tactically outclass a stronger opposition in a high profile encounter e.g Jardine, Vaughan,Taylor

 

[silentstriker]

What seperates a good captain from an ordinary captain.

1. If he (the cpatain) can make an ordianary team perform above themselves e.g Fleming and Kardar
2. If he can turn a good team in to a great team e.g Waugh, Lloyd
3. If ha can tactically outclass a stronger opposition in a high profile encounter e.g Jardine, Vaughan

So what if a captain is already in charge of a great side? What would make him good?

 

[Xuhaib]

So what if a captain is already in charge of a great side? What would make him good?

By winning the toughest challenge he faces, if Ponting had won the Ashes and played a more important role in the series win against India (unfortunatley he was injured) then he might have been considered better then Waugh since Waugh failed to win in India.

 

[silentstriker]

By winning the toughest challenge he faces, if Ponting had won the Ashes and played a more important role in the series win against India (unfortunatley he was injured) then he might have been considered better then Waugh since Waugh failed to win in India.

So basically he is asked to be perfect. Losing 1/12 series takes him from being 'great' and better than Waugh, to 'average' or 'bad'. Those 11/12 series mean nothing.

 

[Xuhaib]

So basically he is asked to be perfect. Losing 1/12 series takes him from being 'great' and better than Waugh, to 'average' or 'bad'. Those 11/12 series mean nothing.

His record is good thats why he is in the top 32 but no one expects him to win because he blew it at the biggest challenge of his captaincy career.

 

[silentstriker]

We'll see soon whether he can correct that. If he can, he will automatically jump from bad to great, no?

 

[Xuhaib]

We'll see soon whether he can correct that. If he can, he will automatically jump from bad to great, no?

No one called him bad he is just not the Jardines, Vaughans and Imraans of this world.

 

[silentstriker]

No one called him bad he is just not the Jardines, Vaughans and Imraans of this world.

Even though he's won more than any of them? You are claiming that because he is not perfect (and winning the Ashes would mean he is 12/12), he is automatically not in the league of others who've won less.

If he had a better personality, I wonder where he'd rank?

 

[Xuhaib]

Even though he's won more than any of them? You are claiming that because he is not perfect (and winning the Ashes would mean he is 12/12), he is automatically not in the league of others who've won less.

If he had a better personality, I wonder where he'd rank?

On all 12 occasions he had a far stronger team then the opposition so yes he should have been perfect and won all 12 series but in the end he lost the only time he was put under pressure which shows his leadership was just not inspirational enough to lift the team when the chips were down.

 

[Sanz]

Even though he's won more than any of them? You are claiming that because he is not perfect (and winning the Ashes would mean he is 12/12), he is automatically not in the league of others who've won less.

If he had a better personality, I wonder where he'd rank?

Ponting has not won a single series where his team was challenged. He didn't captain in India, infact if we count tests under him, Australia lost the series in India. He lost the series against England.

And yeah if he had a better personality, he probably would rank higher, but the fact is that he doesn't.

 

[silentstriker]

Ponting has not won a single series where his team was challenged. He didn't captain in India, infact if we count tests under him, Australia lost the series in India. He lost the series against England.

And yeah if he had a better personality, he probably would rank higher, but the fact is that he doesn't.

Or maybe his team wasn't challenged because he was a good captain?


Like I said, without other stats, how can you know?

 

[Xuhaib]

Or maybe his team wasn't challenged because he was a good captain?


Like I said, without other stats, how can you know?

Straw clutching.