Australian Thread

[Goughy]

A good death-bowling-attack will always be capable of restricting any line-up to 60. Or less.

ALWAYS? Just when Im agreeing with you on the topic you say something OTT, oh well.

 

[Richard]

Aaaahhhh... I said they always will be capable, not they always will...

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

But he still bowled that Full-Toss.

IMO, Bracken's wasted at the death. If you bowl him as an opener and then in the 30-40 sort of period (a la Pollock) you'll get 10-<40-? most times.

You can say that about any accurate bowler. Somebody has to bowl at the death, and you don't use a bowler to get the best figures possible. If Bracken goes for less at the death than the other options (and he usually does), he should bowl at the death.

 

[pup11]

Bracks is probably the best death bowler for aus!!

IMO bracks has got a very good change is pace and he can get his yorker exactly right, just one or two bad games doesn't change that. By coming over the wicket to right-handers he cramps them for room not allowing them to play any shots freely. Everything said and done he is one of the best odi bowlers around today.

 

[vic_orthdox]

But he still bowled that Full-Toss.

IMO, Bracken's wasted at the death. If you bowl him as an opener and then in the 30-40 sort of period (a la Pollock) you'll get 10-<40-? most times.

Same with everyone. It's as though you're more concerned about how their figures will end up, rather than trying to win the game.

 

[Richard]

You can say that about any accurate bowler. Somebody has to bowl at the death, and you don't use a bowler to get the best figures possible. If Bracken goes for less at the death than the other options (and he usually does), he should bowl at the death.

Not neccessarily. It's better for Australia if someone else bowls at the death and Bracken bowls elsewhere. The same, incidentally, with any team possessing a really accurate seamer.

If someone else bowls earlier and Bracken bowls at the death, both will be expensive. If Bracken bowls earlier and someone else bowls at the death, at least Bracken gets an economical spell, so the carnage starts earlier.

It's better for, for instance, Bracken to get 10-32-2 and Tait to get 10-67-1 than for Tait to get 10-65-1 and Bracken 10-57-3.

 

[Richard]

It's as though you're more concerned about how their figures will end up, rather than trying to win the game.

Well given that the way their figures end-up has the exact same effect on the game as it does on their career averages, uh, yeah.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Well given that the way their figures end-up has the exact same effect on the game as it does on their career averages, uh, yeah.

That's so far disconnected from reality it's unbelievable. Any bowler is going to be more expensive bowling at the death than earlier in the innings. If Bracken goes for 24 off his first 6 overs, it's better for the team if he ends up going for 50 bowling his last overs at the death than if he bowls out and goes for 40, if the alternative is another guy in the same situation going for 60 or 70. What results in the best figures for an individual bowler isn't necessarily what's best for the team, because it's a team sport. If Bracken is the best Australian bowler at the death, he should bowl at the death. Who cares how his figures end up?

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

IMO bracks has got a very good change is pace and he can get his yorker exactly right, just one or two bad games doesn't change that. By coming over the wicket to right-handers he cramps them for room not allowing them to play any shots freely. Everything said and done he is one of the best odi bowlers around today.

I'd have thought he would cramp them for room if he went around the wicket...

It's not just one or two games that have show Bracken to be far less capable late in the innings than he is at the start. He's just not a very good death bowler. There are better bowlers who are as poor at the death.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Bracken does go around the wicket fairly often at the death.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Bracken does go around the wicket fairly often at the death.

Yea, I was pointing out what I presume to be an error, in that he said "over" when surely he meant "around".

 

[Richard]

That's so far disconnected from reality it's unbelievable. Any bowler is going to be more expensive bowling at the death than earlier in the innings. If Bracken goes for 24 off his first 6 overs, it's better for the team if he ends up going for 50 bowling his last overs at the death than if he bowls out and goes for 40, if the alternative is another guy in the same situation going for 60 or 70.

Do you not understand what I'm saying? Anyone who bowls at the death will go for runs, unless they're very good at doing it (which neither Bracken nor any of the Tait\Johnson\Watson brigade are). However, the Tait\Johnson\Watson brigade are also likely to go for runs in the middle of the innings, which Bracken isn't. Therefore, if Bracken bowls at the death and the other 3 in the middle, everyone's expensive. However, if Bracken bowls in the middle and the other three at the death, at least someone is economical.

It's a question of 2+2 > 1+2.

What results in the best figures for an individual bowler isn't necessarily what's best for the team, because it's a team sport. If Bracken is the best Australian bowler at the death, he should bowl at the death. Who cares how his figures end up?

It's a team sport played by individuals. In any given delivery, it's one batsman against one bowler. Whichever of these does best is the one that helps his team the most. The better a bowler's figures, the better for his team. Full-stop.

 

[Richard]

Bracken does go around the wicket fairly often at the death.

In common with near enough every left-arm seamer who bowls later on in an innings. Even the ultimate left-arm-over bowler Alan Mullally did such a thing.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Do you not understand what I'm saying? Anyone who bowls at the death will go for runs, unless they're very good at doing it (which neither Bracken nor any of the Tait\Johnson\Watson brigade are). However, the Tait\Johnson\Watson brigade are also likely to go for runs in the middle of the innings, which Bracken isn't. Therefore, if Bracken bowls at the death and the other 3 in the middle, everyone's expensive. However, if Bracken bowls in the middle and the other three at the death, at least someone is economical.

Did you just ignore my whole post or what? My entire point was that if Bracken is better than the other Australian bowlers at bowling at the death, he should bowl at the death regardless of how his figures end up. That's why I gave the illustrative example. It's better for Bracken to go from conceding 40 off his 10 to conceding 50 or 60 if the alternative is a bowler conceding 70 or 80 from a similar position. Bracken's figures are irrelevant, because he's being compared (in theory) to other bowlers in the actual match, not attempting to achieve an arbitrary statistical goal over his whole career. Every bowler would be more economical if they bowled out early on.

 

[pup11]

One more thing is that when symo comes back into the playing XI during the world cup, who would we drop then. In all probability it would be hodgey,but it would really be unfair on him as he has performed very consistently since his 99* against the black caps.

 

[Richard]

Did you just ignore my whole post or what? My entire point was that if Bracken is better than the other Australian bowlers at bowling at the death, he should bowl at the death regardless of how his figures end up. That's why I gave the illustrative example. It's better for Bracken to go from conceding 40 off his 10 to conceding 50 or 60 if the alternative is a bowler conceding 70 or 80 from a similar position. Bracken's figures are irrelevant, because he's being compared (in theory) to other bowlers in the actual match, not attempting to achieve an arbitrary statistical goal over his whole career. Every bowler would be more economical if they bowled out early on.

What evidence is there to suggest other bowlers are likely to be any more expensive than Bracken at the death?

None.

Bracken is as likely to go for, say, 30 off 3 overs as anyone else. He's also more likely to go for 10 off those 3 if he bowls them earlier - unlike the others.

You should use your best bowlers where they're most useful.

 

[pup11]

Barry Richards is at it again, he was a great player but without a shadow of doubt i can say that he hates the australian side. He has made a comment that the aussies are on downhill slide and they just can't comeback at all during the world cup. He said the aussies would be beaten in the test series against SA in SA, they won't win the C-T(in India), and many more things but none have come true.

 

[Richard]

Barry Richards is at it again, he was a great player but without a shadow of doubt i can say that he hates the australian side.

You could say that about several hundred commentators and pundits and any side you care to name.

I really do tire of this "so-and-so hates such-and-such a nation" - I've had enough dumbaesses throw it my way, about every single nation in cricket (including England AND South Africa).

 

[pup11]

But when everyone is saying aussies can bounce back after there form in slump, then there's a certain Mr. Richards who has come out and straight away let everyone know that aussie domination is over and there's is no way he sees then making a comeback. Whenever the aussies have had a lean patch he has written them off everytime, only to see aussie bouncing back.

 

[howardj]

Was looking today, while at work!, at the composition of the Aussie team in the 1999 World Cup. The thing that struck me was that they kept the same side basically the whole way through the tournament - for instance, eight guys played all 10 games, one guy played nine games. The point is that they didn't chop and change, even though they had an ordinary start to the tournament. Moreover, they basically shelved the rotation policy that they'd used leading up to that World Cup.

Hope they do the same in this World Cup. Settle on the 11 very early and, within reason, live or die by those guys.

With that in mind, I'd like to see them stick pretty much with these lads:

Hayden
Gilchrist
Ponting
Hussey
Clarke
Hodge
Watson
Hogg
Bracken
Tait
McGrath