Ashes XI

[Steulen]

Blignaut?!!!

Which says more of my esteem for Jones than Blignaut

 

[Zinzan]

If England only had 4, Flintoff would be in for certain, he's a front line bowler with the ability to bat at 6.

In fact at the moment I'd say his bowling is ahead of his batting.

But you are in love with Andrew Flintoff Marc

 

[Zinzan]

Harmison over Lee?

Agreed ...what absolute rubbish for a oneday match

 

[marc71178]

But you are in love with Andrew Flintoff Marc

No, I am not, it is more the fact you can't accept how good a player he actually is.

 

[Zinzan]

No, I am not, it is more the fact you can't accept how good a player he actually is.

C'mon Marc....don't be so sensitive ....I was just teasing.

Just for the record I do think Flintoff is a fine player...possibly just a tad overhyped at times.

 

[psxpro]

No, I am not, it is more the fact you can't accept how good a player he actually is.

He is a fine player but very highly overated.
there are better allrounders than him in world cricket.
His overall test record isnt that good.

 

[badgerhair]

He is a fine player but very highly overated.
there are better allrounders than him in world cricket.
.

Such as?

(And don't give me a load of nonsense about Kallis, who may well be a fantastic batsman but hasn't averaged under 40 with the ball for a series against a proper side (ie not Bangladesh or Zimbabwe) for years and is no more than a trundler - whatever he might have been in 1998.)

Cheers,

Mike

 

[psxpro]

Jacob oram.
we are talking tests here.
compare the two test records.
oram's is much better.

 

[Blaze]

Giles is a very under-rated person with the bat in hand.

Tends to bat at 6 or 7 for Warwickshire.

He isn't underrated anymore because you continually talk him up

 

[Blaze]

But you are in love with Andrew Flintoff Marc

LOL..

 

[vic_orthdox]

don't think that overall stats do the justice to flintoff that his form over the past two years deserve. anyways, surely we've had enough flintoff vs oram convos.

 

[psxpro]

Yeah hes been in good form, but then I think so has daniel vettori who probsbly averages more than tendulkar with the bat in the last 2 years (tests)
We don't go around calling him an alltime great tho

 

[chaminda_00]

Yeah hes been in good form, but then I think so has daniel vettori who probsbly averages more than tendulkar with the bat in the last 2 years (tests)
We don't go around calling him an alltime great tho

I don't think Tendulkar form been that bad, in the last two years he averages 45 (not including his Bangladesh matches), not as good as his usually best but that doesn't make him a worse batsmen then Vettori. Vettori averages 38, also not including Bangladesh matches in the same time, pretty good stuff for a lower order batsmen.

I do agree with what your saying about good form not making someone a all time great, but it wasn't a good comparsion.

 

[Scallywag]

i would perhaps have him over lee but not kasprowicz

When it comes to ODI cricket Harmison is miles behind Lee and although impressive Kaspowicz is out gunned by Lee.

Brett Lee is one of the best three ODI bowlers around at the moment.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

i would perhaps have him over lee but not kasprowicz

Lee averages 22 with a strike rate under 30 you know? Harmison is not exactly a great one day bowler.

 

[badgerhair]

Jacob oram.

You said "there are better allrounders". That's plural. Name another one.

we are talking tests here.
compare the two test records.
oram's is much better.

Indeed it is. Flintoff was picked years before he was any good. Let's look, though, at their respective records in Test cricket for the last two years - which might be a better indication of how good the players are *now*:

........ M..... I.....NO... R...... HS.... Ave....... O......... R ....... W....BB..... Ave.... SR
A F... 24.... 39...3....1596....167....44.33......776.0....2272....77...5-58....29.51...60.47
J O....15.... 26...5..... 973....126*...46.33......437.5....1139....24...3-54....47.46..109.46

It is blindingly obvious that Oram is by far the better allrounder from those figures, isn't it?

Cheers,

Mike

 

[a massive zebra]

Hello Mike.

Are you prepared to concede defeat in our debate

 

[Somerset]

To be honest, I rate the two allrounders very closely - sure, Flintoff's bowling record was far superior last year but you must look at the support the two received. Oram, at times had a mediocre, or injury struck attack, while Flintoff always had the likes of Harmison, Hoggard, Jones and Giles to bowl with. I would also suspect Oram's batting average would be higher if he wasn't forced to score runs with the tail - often consisting of Tuffey and Martin - on many occasions, while Flintoff's best innings (and I refer to his 167) came with a recognised batsman in Geriant Jones.

 

[tooextracool]

Trouble is an English Summer (this Ashes season almost impinges(sp) on Autumn) is not so much like the summer of old, at least it wasn't last year and i can't see it being this year. With no test at Headingly and the first test starting late July, Old Trafford likely to spin i can't see that Hoggard will be much more that a support bowler this year. Not to say that he won't be effective at that, he's certainly better than he was a couple of years ago when the ball isn't moving but I hope he proves me wrong and takes a bucketful.

the thing about england though, is that even if its not moving of the wicket, theres usually movement in the air, even if that isnt much to work with.

 

[tooextracool]

Jacob oram.
we are talking tests here.
compare the two test records.
oram's is much better.

jacob oram would struggle to make the zimbabwe side for his bowling alone.