Are we really going to pretend that Tim Southee...

[Daemon]

harris is the ****ing man and is the real rock in the australian attack. johnson is the glitzy glam boy who steals all of harris' limelight.

you take harris out of the attack and all of a sudden johnson's 145kph thunderbolts don't work as well because you need someone at the other end. take johnson out of the attack and harris' ability to set a batsman up and completely screw with him will still see him carry on his merry way being awesome.

**** i hate johnson now i think about it. gets all the credit, good at being a hard **** when he's winning and feeling ****y but we all remember his sooks. harris is a ****ing boss.

Of course they complement each other, but there is no ****ing way they'd be significantly worse off without the other.

 

[hendrix]

I'll give you 5 mins to change that to complement before I report you.

 

[Flem274*]

Of course they compliment each other, but there is no ****ing way they'd be significantly worse off without the other.

johnson went from averaging about 2 to 29 or whatever it was without harris.

im not saying that no harris makes johnson drop off a cliff, but johnson needs harris keeping the batsmen pegged more than harris needs johnson.

 

[hendrix]

johnson needs harris keeping the batsmen pegged more than harris needs johnson.

dwta.

 

[DriveClub]

I thought Boult is as good as Southee, why is Southee better than Boult, they both equal to me

 

[Bahnz]

I thought Boult is as good as Southee, why is Southee better than Boult, they both equal to me

For a start, if you look at their stats over the last 2 and a half years, Southee is pretty clearly doing better than Boult.

I understand why a lot of people are suckered into thinking that Boult is equal to/better than Southee. He's quicker, swings the ball both ways, and can get some really nasty reverse. But he's also tended to struggle at times when away from home, and is prone to going missing. In that sense, he's basically a left-armed version of James Anderson

Southee isn't as flashy as Boult. He generally doesn't bowl the massive hooping 140+ inswingers that Boult does. But his control of line and length, his use of the crease, his well disguised variations and his general qualities as a thinking bowler, make him comfortably the better the bowler at the moment.

 

[uvelocity]

arsey as an attribute is underrated

 

[Daemon]

johnson went from averaging about 2 to 29 or whatever it was without harris.

im not saying that no harris makes johnson drop off a cliff, but johnson needs harris keeping the batsmen pegged more than harris needs johnson.

I think you're underestimating how much Johnson has softened up batsmen for the rest of the bowlers as well.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

For a start, if you look at their stats over the last 2 and a half years, Southee is pretty clearly doing better than Boult.

I understand why a lot of people are suckered into thinking that Boult is equal to/better than Southee. He's quicker, swings the ball both ways, and can get some really nasty reverse. But he's also tended to struggle at times when away from home, and is prone to going missing. In that sense, he's basically a left-armed version of James Anderson

Southee isn't as flashy as Boult. He generally doesn't bowl the massive hooping 140+ inswingers that Boult does. But his control of line and length, his use of the crease, his well disguised variations and his general qualities as a thinking bowler, make him comfortably the better the bowler at the moment.

I think the extra experience Southee has is the difference. Boult will get there to that level in time but who knows where Southee will be by then. Boult is currently the more devastating in my opinion when he does get it right but Southee for now is the better more reliable of the pair.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Southee's flat out better than Boult at the moment. Boult has incredible potential and will be as awesome as Southee soon, and may be even better, but right now it's a decent gap imo. Boult regularly tries just a bit too hard to bowl amazing deliveries, which he's capable of, and ends up neutering himself a bit.

 

[Flem274*]

Southee isn't as flashy as Boult. He generally doesn't bowl the massive hooping 140+ inswingers that Boult does. But his control of line and length, his use of the crease, his well disguised variations and his general qualities as a thinking bowler, make him comfortably the better the bowler at the moment.

yeah im yet to see a batsman pick his off cutter consistently. nails blokes by sneakily coming in wider on the crease too.

 

[Dan]

johnson went from averaging about 2 to 29 or whatever it was without harris.

He also went from bowling on bouncy Australian and South African decks, to strips of cracking Abu Dhabi highway. Obviously having a bowler like Harris at the other end is immensely beneficial, but you can't ignore that other variable entirely.

 

[Flem274*]

if people keep missing the point im just going to start doing that thing jono whinges about when cw rates players.

i must be doing a **** job of explaining it. im not saying johnson is a myth, im saying his method of turning the game into a contact sport requires two things:

1) pace and bounce in the pitch
2) someone keeping things tight and taking regular wickets at the other end

johnson had neither in the UAE, so he got nerfed. harris doesn't need pace and bounce (though it does help him ofc) nor does he need someone at the other end as much as johnson needs him. harris works batsmen out and sets them up during the over. again, having johnson and the right pitch is helpful to him but he is no where near as reliant on those things as johnson is.

that's why harris is the man of the australian attack. you can't hide from him on any pitch and taking runs off the other blokes will only do so much. johnson trying to hit blokes is all well and good, but it's not so bad when he's being nerfed by a slow low motorway and the guys down the other end are keeping you confident. when ryan harris is taking your technique to pieces life is pretty ****.

you can beat guys up but keeping all the modes of dismissal in play nearly every ball and setting the batsman up is better, and that's what harris does and it's why he's effective everywhere and doesn't need the attack around him to be as useful.

 

[Jarquis]

People get the point you're making, they just disagree I'd suggest.
I mean, a lot of it has merit - you're probably right to suggest that Harris is less reliant on Johnson than vice versa but to suggest that the lack of Harris is more responsible for Johnson's results this series than the conditions is a bridge too far.

 

[hendrix]

I don't think Boult will ever catch up to Southee. Southee gets more bounce off a length which makes him able to operate in McGrath-Ambrose mode when necessary. I've never seen Boult get that sharp bounce off a length. I think he'll always be a swing bowler. A damn good one, maybe rising to the levels of Jimmy Anderson, but he won't be up there with Southee.

 

[GIMH]

Oh look Teja hating on Anderson. What else is new

 

[Furball]

Anderson's ridiculously overrated. Has a good series here and there mixed in with long periods of mediocrity.

Steyn and Johnson a level above the rest. Harris, if his knee still has something, is third. Southee a close 4th for me. He's only underrated by people who haven't seen him bowl.

Can you give an example of such a period please? If anything that description most aptly fits Johnson.

 

[Furball]

Anderson had an 18 month or so period in his absolute purple patch when he was a very good away bowler and during that phase he was truly outstanding and led from the front in UAE, India, Australia and SL.

That doesn't excuse the fact that he's been a **** away bowler for the remaining 9 years or of his career, including the last two. It'd be great if people stopped referring to that phase each time someone points it out

Patently untrue.

 

[GIMH]

Anderson has only played two away series since the period Teja mentioned if I'm not mistaken.

And the remaining nine years comment is dramatic licence. He became a regular in 2008.

 

[Furball]

One of which was spent bowling with a cracked rib at a batting lineup under no pressure whatsoever because his own batting lineup forgot to pack their spines on the flight from Heathrow to Australia.