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Andy Flower vs Ian Botham

Better test cricketer?


  • Total voters
    20

sayon basak

International Captain
Two reasons I suspect.

1. He's probably still sticking to his "Flower was a great keeper" shtick.

2. Ridiculously down plays Punter.
Both of which are wrong. He informed me in the convo that he misread the Thread as "Ian Bishop vs Andy Flower" and voted accordingly. Then he realized but just didn't change the vote, he doesn't actually rate Flower over Botham.
 

Migara

International Coach
Nope.

When you mention "teams" then obviously we're going to go by teams, I'm going to pick a team with respect to time, you did the same when you mentioned late 80s and early 90s Pakistan, Botham was picked as a general Cricketer, not at the lowest point in his career where it was universally agreed he shouldn't be playing Cricket.
Nope. The time period was specifically selected to show that Imran was useless as an AR, but it spectacularly backfired because it was Botham's nadir too. You cannot compare 89-92 Imran to general career of Botham. That is disingenuous. Either compare full careers or part of the careers in the time you are interested it.

your logic's flaw seems to have popped up when 2000s South Africa was discussed, should we now play it with respect to time and assume you're talking about if 2000s Botham would make the side?
There was not even a logic to discuss. Ntini, Morkel and Pollock didn't play together and that was the end of that argument. Botham would not be the third seamer in Steyn, Pollock, Ntini combo or Steyn, Morkel, Philander combo. He is not going to replace Kallis as the fourth seamer too. And that was that for the argument.

Botham does not need any qualifier or condition to get into any Pakistani side, you just have a strange hate honer and decided to alter context of sides so that Botham can't make it.
He cannot get in to Pakistan side of late 80s and early 90s, on performance of the time, general performance or with regards to the peaks of each player.

Peak Botham averages 20 with the ball and 35 with the bat, and doesn't have to use bottlecaps to tamper the ball, he's making it in over Waqar anyday
Lol

also No, Flower doesn't make an ATG English side, Botham may, clearly not a very good method.
No one discussed about the ATG english side. Flower would get in to any English side Botham played, and to the Pakistani ATG side if you cared to read it properly.

It is a rather poor effort from you.
 

Johan

International Captain
Nope. The time period was specifically selected to show that Imran was useless as an AR, but it spectacularly backfired because it was Botham's nadir too. You cannot compare 89-92 Imran to general career of Botham. That is disingenuous. Either compare full careers or part of the careers in the time you are interested it.
Not really how it works, it wasn't Johan who pointed out 80s-early 90s Pakistan side, It was Migara who pointed out that specific side in that specific timeframe, you limited yourself to that timeframe while not limiting Botham to any tangible or visible timeframe and thus we're going by his general overall career performance, you simply messed up your argument and are trying to backtrack to "Well No! I meant Botham in XYZ timeframe I swear!", either you take the context of the side you're referencing or just say you're making up fanfictional sides that Botham won't make, a Pakistani side where all four are firing on all cylinders? sure! Botham may not make that one, but sadly that side only exists in one's mind, but the actual side of late 80s/early 90s Pakistan? He's making it in for either his batting or bowling.

There was not even a logic to discuss. Ntini, Morkel and Pollock didn't play together and that was the end of that argument. Botham would not be the third seamer in Steyn, Pollock, Ntini combo or Steyn, Morkel, Philander combo
I'm afraid it wasn't, You said "2000s South Africa" very generally, I was the one with the sense to make the differentiation between the first half and the second half, as I already informed you, Botham is making it in over Andre Nel or Makhaya Ntini in the first half of the decade and he's opening the bowling with Pollock, and in the second half he's making it in over Morkel and is either opening the bowling with Steyn or is the third pacer, depending on Vernon's availability and the conditions. You dropped the argument simply because you had nothing to refute that.

He cannot get in to Pakistan side of late 80s and early 90s, on performance of the time, general performance or with regards to the peaks of each player.
Yeah Botham at the worst point in his career might not make that side, teleport a young or mid career Botham to that Pakistan and he's playing a 100+ tests, we don't need to discuss "peak" or "general performance" in the case of the Pakistan side you're referencing because you're manually limiting the Pakistani players to a timeframe, that is the whole concept behind "late 80s/early 90s Pakistan", for Botham you never made a "late 80s/early 90s" dissection as you did with Pakistan, thus we're going by his general performance.

I'll take that as a concession then.

No one discussed about the ATG english side.
then I wonder who brought up ATG sides at the first place- oh wait! it was you.

Flower would get in to any English side Botham played
Botham would also make any team Flower ever played for, hell, he'll be the first name on the sheet.

and to the Pakistani ATG side if you cared to read it properly.
Ok? I never said Botham would make it into the Pakistani ATG side, I said he'd make any side that ever existed and newsflash, an ATG Pakistani side doesn't exist, another strawman from you.

It is a rather poor effort from you.
I'm refuting very poor arguments from your end that are bordering on rambling, so I don't think I'd need to put much effort.
 
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