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Andy Flower vs Ian Botham

Better test cricketer?

  • Total voters
    20
Johan

Johan

International Captain
Migara said:
Last time I checked, Imran, Wasim and Waqar did not play for South Africa at any point of time.
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You literally mentioned 2000s South Africa alongside late 80s/90s Pakistan as sides Botham can't make lol, so obviously I'd take it as an overall Botham not making those sides, but I guess you just meant he won't make the south African side as a 60 year-old
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
Johan said:
That's like saying Current Botham won't make the current English side.
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However the discussion was
Pretty sure he would because as is so often pointed out Imran was practically not bowling when Waqar came in.
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which was 89-92 period. So if you want to restrict Imran to that time period, you have to restrict Botham too. Imran at least was useful with the bat. Botham averaged 14.6 with the bat and 48.6 with the ball. So no, he is not going to replace any Pakistani player during that period.

Then if you consider peak performances, Wasim, Waqar, Imran and Qadir all were beasts. There was no need for a fifth bowler as well.
 
Johan

Johan

International Captain
Migara said:
However the discussion was


which was 89-92 period. So if you want to restrict Imran to that time period, you have to restrict Botham too. Imran at least was useful with the bat. Botham averaged 14.6 with the bat and 48.6 with the ball. So no, he is not going to replace any Pakistani player during that period.

Then if you consider peak performances, Wasim, Waqar, Imran and Qadir all were beasts. There was no need for a fifth bowler as well.
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Ah I see, you're basically saying Botham won't make a hypothetical side of Pakistan where Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Qadir were all simultaneously at peak output, a side that never existed and has never played Cricket? Ah ok then, I guess Botham won't make your fantasy side.
 
Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
Migara said:
However the discussion was


which was 89-92 period. So if you want to restrict Imran to that time period, you have to restrict Botham too. Imran at least was useful with the bat. Botham averaged 14.6 with the bat and 48.6 with the ball. So no, he is not going to replace any Pakistani player during that period.

Then if you consider peak performances, Wasim, Waqar, Imran and Qadir all were beasts. There was no need for a fifth bowler as well.
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capt_Luffy said:
Are you really this dense?
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BazBall21

BazBall21

International Captain
Seam bowling all rounders should get more leeway for longevity. Botham is rightfully criticised for his lifestyle playing a role in a severe decline, but he also played a hell of a lot of cricket beforehand and was overworked.
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
Johan said:
Ah I see, you're basically saying Botham won't make a hypothetical side of Pakistan where Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Qadir were all simultaneously at peak output, a side that never existed and has never played Cricket? Ah ok then, I guess Botham won't make your fantasy side.
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not only that, he won't make the side where Imran was not bowling during 89-92 period according to his form.

So for Pakistan side of late 80s and early 90s, on peak form, Botham won't make it. On form during the late 80s, and early 90s, still won't make it. Sorry to burst the bubble.
 
Johan

Johan

International Captain
Migara said:
not only that, he won't make the side where Imran was not bowling during 89-92 period acoording to his form.
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Yeah, he'd make any actual side that has ever played Cricket, he won't make fanfic sides after you restrict most of his career
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
Johan said:
Yeah, he'd make any actual side that has ever played Cricket, he won't make fanfic sides after you restrict most of his career
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Pakistan side between 89-92 will not take a bowler averaging 49 with ball and 15 with bat. There is no rocket science about that.

To summarise

Botham won't make the Pakistan side between 89-92 on form, where Imran was not able to perform as an all rounder
Botham won't make the Pakistan side of late 80s and early 90s if assumed all players + Botham is in peak
Botham won't make the Pakistan ATG side

However Flower will walk in to ATG Pakistani side as a keeper bat.
 
Johan

Johan

International Captain
Migara said:
Pakistan side between 89-92 will not take a bowler averaging 49 with ball and 15 with bat. There is no rocket science about that.

To summarise

Botham won't make the Pakistan side between 89-92 on form, where Imran was not able to perform as an all rounder
Botham won't make the Pakistan side of late 80s and early 90s if assumed all players + Botham is in peak
Botham won't make the Pakistan ATG side

However Flower will walk in to ATG Pakistani side as a keeper bat.
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Yeah, Botham in X point of his career won't make X team from (completely random btw) timeframe, but Botham is a Batsmen averaging 33 and bowler averaging 28, if their overall career is considered than he is easily making it in.

to summarise
Botham would make the Pakistan side of 89-92 on the basis of his actual ability as a Cricket throughout his career.
Botham would make the Pakistan team of 89-92 assuming everyone is at peak output, peak Botham walks into any team in the history of the sport.
Botham would indeed probably not make the ATG Pakistan side.

I mean, Flower is not making an ATG English XI while Botham may, clearly not a strong metric.
 
Last edited:
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
Flower's keeping, as was mentioned earlier, was a net negative.

Botham was a great all rounder, not top 5, but not far from and a great slip.


Easily beats Flower for me
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
Johan said:
Yeah, Botham in X point of his career won't make X team from (completely random btw) timeframe, but Botham is a Batsmen averaging 33 and bowler averaging 28, if their overall career is considered than he is easily making it in.

to summarise
Botham would make the Pakistan side of 89-92 on the basis of his actual ability as a Cricket throughout his career.
Botham would make the Pakistan team of 89-92 assuming everyone is at peak output, peak Botham walks into any team in the history of the sport.
Botham would indeed probably not make the ATG Pakistan side.

I mean, Flower is not making an ATG English XI while Botham may, clearly not a strong metric.
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Comparing apples to oranges.

IF you want to compare at X point compare at X point
If you want to compare peaks, compare peaks
If you want to compare ATG sides, compare ATG sides.

"peak Botham walks into any team in the history of the sport." - No. Peak Imran will easily replace him every day of the week and twice on Sundays. 50 with the bat and 19 with the ball in his peak. Even the peak argument doesn't work when Imran is in the picture.

Botham needs multiple qualifiers, conditions, and filters to come to one of the best Pakistani sides. Flower walks in to the ATG Pakistani side.

What ever the way this is looked, it is not good for Botham.
 
Johan

Johan

International Captain
Migara said:
Comparing apples to oranges.

IF you want to compare at X point compare at X point
If you want to compare peaks, compare peaks
If you want to compare ATG sides, compare ATG sides.

"peak Botham walks into any team in the history of the sport." - No. Peak Imran will easily replace him every day of the week and twice on Sundays. 50 with the bat and 19 with the ball in his peak. Even the peak argument doesn't work when Imran is in the picture.

Botham needs multiple qualifiers, conditions, and filters to come to one of the best Pakistani sides. Flower walks in to the ATG Pakistani side.

What ever the way this is looked, it is not good for Botham.
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Nope.

When you mention "teams" then obviously we're going to go by teams, I'm going to pick a team with respect to time, you did the same when you mentioned late 80s and early 90s Pakistan, Botham was picked as a general Cricketer, not at the lowest point in his career where it was universally agreed he shouldn't be playing Cricket.

your logic's flaw seems to have popped up when 2000s South Africa was discussed, should we now play it with respect to time and assume you're talking about if 2000s Botham would make the side?

Botham does not need any qualifier or condition to get into any Pakistani side, you just have a strange hate honer and decided to alter context of sides so that Botham can't make it.

Peak Botham averages 20 with the ball and 35 with the bat, and doesn't have to use bottlecaps to tamper the ball, he's making it in over Waqar anyday.

also No, Flower doesn't make an ATG English side, Botham may, clearly not a very good method.
 
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