And here we go again....

[C_C]

He gets referred to the biomechanical committee who then conduct tests on Harbhajan(or any hypothetical bowler). They enforce match conditions (a few umpires and/or video personnel are present to certify that harbhajan IS bowling with accordance to match conditions) and ask him to bowl a dozen or more overs, while accurately measuring ALL his flex angles.

If he is found to be flexing BEYOND the statistical margin of error, he is guilty of throwing and then the appropriate ICC laws apply to him to determine what happens to him.
if he is found NOT to be flexing BEYOND the statistical margin of error, he is declared clear and allowed to resume his on-field duties.

 

[SJS]

He gets referred to the biomechanical committee who then conduct tests on Harbhajan(or any hypothetical bowler). They enforce match conditions (a few umpires and/or video personnel are present to certify that harbhajan IS bowling with accordance to match conditions) and ask him to bowl a dozen or more overs, while accurately measuring ALL his flex angles.

If he is found to be flexing BEYOND the statistical margin of error, he is guilty of throwing and then the appropriate ICC laws apply to him to determine what happens to him.
if he is found NOT to be flexing BEYOND the statistical margin of error, he is declared clear and allowed to resume his on-field duties.

Good !!

Now. Harbhajan, being the wily old fox that he is, does not throw his off break in front of the biomechanical committee when the tests are being conducted. Remember he is able to bowl noramal off breaks also and remain within the 15 degree flex limit. Now what ?

 

[honestbharani]

Good !!

Now. Harbhajan, being the wily old fox that he is, does not throw his off break in front of the biomechanical committee when the tests are being conducted. Remember he is able to bowl noramal off breaks also and remain within the 15 degree flex limit. Now what ?

Shouldn't the umps and the other guys who are present to ensure that he bowls like he normally does take care of that?

 

[SJS]

Shouldn't the umps and the other guys who are present to ensure that he bowls like he normally does take care of that?

How ? They can either call him as per the old system or report him as per the current one.

And he has the choice to throw or not to throw. If the delivery is not one like the doosra, which by its very action leads to a flex, (more than 15 or less), then any bowler is at liberty to chuck his normal delivery once in a while.

 

[C_C]

If he didnt chuck (assuming he did) in match conditions deliberately, it WILL show up in the tests... because if it isnt deliberate, it isnt controllable cognitively by a person...
However, if he DID chuck it deliberately, then the relevant video analysis done by the biomechanists will show the chuck.
That would show Harby to be a chucker and again...he would be subject to the appropriate ICC laws regarding chucking.

To my knowledge, they do both- video analysis of the game in question(the game/series where the bowler was reported) and lab testing....and this isnt just playing your video in slow-mo...this is frame-by-frame analysis from various angles with biomechanical principles applied to it.

 

[honestbharani]

How ? They can either call him as per the old system or report him as per the current one.

And he has the choice to throw or not to throw. If the delivery is not one like the doosra, which by its very action leads to a flex, (more than 15 or less), then any bowler is at liberty to chuck his normal delivery once in a while.

No, I meant that the umpires and some other officials will be around while the bowler is filmed from different angles and they should make sure that he bowls the way he bowls under match conditions. And if they cannot do it right, they should be trained in such a way that they can do it right. Human Beings will always find loopholes in any law and use them to their advantage. It happens everywhere and in every sport. It is upto the enforcing authorities to tighten up.

 

[SJS]

If he didnt chuck (assuming he did) in match conditions deliberately, it WILL show up in the tests... because if it isnt deliberate, it isnt controllable cognitively by a person...
However, if he DID chuck it deliberately, then the relevant video analysis done by the biomechanists will show the chuck.
That would show Harby to be a chucker and again...he would be subject to the appropriate ICC laws regarding chucking.

To my knowledge, they do both- video analysis of the game in question(the game/series where the bowler was reported) and lab testing....and this isnt just playing your video in slow-mo...this is frame-by-frame analysis from various angles with biomechanical principles applied to it.

Firstly, yes he threw intentionally.

Secondly, while they can see the match videos but as of now, there is no way to check the angle of flex from the match videos ??

 

[C_C]

then any bowler is at liberty to chuck his normal delivery once in a while.

which in reality they do.
Walsh i know for a fact did...Sonny Ramadhin himself admitted that he was a chucker....and if you sincerely believe that any bowler who's bowled in cricket hasnt crossed the conventional limit of flexion atleast a few times in their careers then you are far from reality...

 

[SJS]

which in reality they do.
Walsh i know for a fact did...Sonny Ramadhin himself admitted that he was a chucker....and if you sincerely believe that any bowler who's bowled in cricket hasnt crossed the conventional limit of flexion atleast a few times in their careers then you are far from reality...

Yes my dear but the Doosra is not the only problem in chucking. People chuck even when not bowling the doosra which can not be bowled withpout additional flex.

The law is not meant only for the doosra, it is to check all forms of chucking.

 

[Scallywag]

To my knowledge, they do both- video analysis of the game in question(the game/series where the bowler was reported) and lab testing....and this isnt just playing your video in slow-mo...this is frame-by-frame analysis from various angles with biomechanical principles applied to it.

If they do frame-by-frame analysis from various angles with biomechanical principles applied to it of the game in question why cant they determine from that if he is chucking.

If they cant determine it from the field and only in the lab then they are no more reliable than an umpire.

 

[honestbharani]

If they do frame-by-frame analysis from various angles with biomechanical principles applied to it of the game in question why cant they determine from that if he is chucking.

If they cant determine it from the field and only in the lab then they are no more reliable than an umpire.

I think the result from the frame by frame analysis can be conclusive to only prove that the bowler is bowling during the tests as he does during a match. And to get the exact measurements, I guess they do the testing by asking the bowler to bowl in front of them and with all gadgets over their body.

 

[C_C]

Secondly, while they can see the match videos but as of now, there is no way to check the angle of flex from the match videos ??

There is- which is how the committee concluded (with expert biomechanical opinions) that almsot all bowlers in history of cricket have chucked the ball.... that is from existing video footage, wihch is not very difficult to get hold of from the late60s period onwards.....
Its just that it isnt as accurate as an in-lab test but the determination can be made....
Now i am not a biomechanical expert but from my experience(when i did or a few of my friends did and i watched), deliberate chucking involves a HUGE flex angle.....so in other words, i think if someone is deliberately chucking, he wont be able to keep it close to the 15 degree mark anyways.....will overshoot by atleast 10-15 degrees or so....

 

[SJS]

There is- which is how the committee concluded (with expert biomechanical opinions) that almsot all bowlers in history of cricket have chucked the ball.... that is from existing video footage, wihch is not very difficult to get hold of from the late60s period onwards.....
Its just that it isnt as accurate as an in-lab test but the determination can be made....
Now i am not a biomechanical expert but from my experience(when i did or a few of my friends did and i watched), deliberate chucking involves a HUGE flex angle.....so in other words, i think if someone is deliberately chucking, he wont be able to keep it close to the 15 degree mark anyways.....will overshoot by atleast 10-15 degrees or so....

Okay. But how will you catch him if he doesnt chuck in the lab ?? Thats my question.

 

[C_C]

from the video evidence !!

 

[SJS]

from the video evidence !!

How ? By definition the delivery is illegal ONLY if the flex is greater than 15 degrees. How do you prove that it was so ??

 

[C_C]

If they do frame-by-frame analysis from various angles with biomechanical principles applied to it of the game in question why cant they determine from that if he is chucking.

Sigh.....this is like explaining high school science all over again......

Inorder to make the study authentic, you use the most accurate means out there....which is the lab work....
The frame by frame analysis is done precisely to prevent what SJS is bringing up- the question of a deliberate chuck in match conditions that can be controlled in lab work.

The lab work is more accurate and is done for a higher precision and accuracy of the results....along with the determination if the person is chucking without a deliberate and cognitive reasoning.

The frame-by-frame work (Which is cruder) is used to prove if the person is deliberately chucking or not.

If they cant determine it from the field and only in the lab then they are no more reliable than an umpire.

me thinks your english vocabulary needs a bit of work.
Reliability is essentially the level of precisio and accuracy that goes along with any deterministic process, where the variables can be quantified.
Since the accuracy and precision of the frame-by-frame analysis and lab work is significantly higher than simple human-eye observations, the labwork/frame by frame analysis is significantly more reliable than the umpire's verdict

 

[Scallywag]

I think the result from the frame by frame analysis can be conclusive to only prove that the bowler is bowling during the tests as he does during a match. And to get the exact measurements, I guess they do the testing by asking the bowler to bowl in front of them and with all gadgets over their body.

Well that still wont be conclusive because as reported Harby changed his action (not his stride but his action) so he has found a flaw in that system.

 

[C_C]

How ? By definition the delivery is illegal ONLY if the flex is greater than 15 degrees. How do you prove that it was so ??

from frame-by-frame analysis of the bowler in the said match from various camera sources (as there are cameras trained on the bowler from atleast three angles - front on, back-on and side on at all times)...it can be determined whether the person is flexing or not... only difference is that it will be a bit more imprecise than the lab work with pads and shirt-less bowling.... but considerably more precise and authentic than the umpire's idea.

 

[C_C]

so he has found a flaw in that system.

he has found a flaw ?
thou art too hasty.... Chris broad has ZERO qualifications to find a flaw in harby's bowling...
all he has done (assuming perfect honesty and integrity) is noticed that something is different....whether it is a flaw or a totally unrelated biomechanical motion to elbow flex, Chris Broad has no authority or credibility to claim.

 

[Scallywag]

Sigh.....this is like explaining high school science all over again......

Inorder to make the study authentic, you use the most accurate means out there....which is the lab work....
The frame by frame analysis is done precisely to prevent what SJS is bringing up- the question of a deliberate chuck in match conditions that can be controlled in lab work.

The lab work is more accurate and is done for a higher precision and accuracy of the results....along with the determination if the person is chucking without a deliberate and cognitive reasoning.

The frame-by-frame work (Which is cruder) is used to prove if the person is deliberately chucking or not.

So biomechanics can only determine a chuck in the lab and are hopeless on the field in a game of cricket.