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All time world test XI selection

Pap Finn Keighl

International Debutant
We don't know for sure what he bowled, which was likely spin. He averaged 21 vs Australia which wasn't that great for the era, his overall average was only that low because he averaged 8 vs a poor S. A team.
The level of competition in that era was less than professional and I'm a little surprised that anyone would think he would be more of an effective bowler than any of those from later eras.

I would say that you over rate him and it appears you tend to overly romanticize the past, and that's fine.
SJS on Sydney Barnes.

"If anyone wants to understand Barnes and his performances, you have to look at various aspects of his career. Some are covered here athers not .

1. Barnes did not play much first class cricket because of financial considerations. The money he made and the security that the Minor Counties offered him made him very reluctant to play for Lancashire, not because he wasn't good enough.

2. One can detect the condescending tone when people talk of the 'club' cricket he played in so far as Minor Counties Cricket is concerned. I dont want to comment on the quality of Minor Counties cricket and today's club cricket but clearly they were not as good as the County Championships and yes Barnes hardly played in first class cricket. Here is how many BALLS (yes balls not overs) he delivered in each year till 1901


  • 1894 : ZILCH (1 match)
  • 1895 : 275 (2 matches)
  • 1896 : 115 (1 match)
  • 1897 : ZILCH
  • 1898 : ZILCH
  • 1899 : 375 (1 match)
  • 1900 : ZILCH
  • 1901 : 216
Thats it. 981 deliveries or 163 overs and 5 matches in 8 years !!

And yet he was selected for the English side for the 1901-02 tour of Australia. Well he must have been some bowler to play just 'club' cricket and yet be taken to Australia.

3. In Australia in Tests he took
  1. 5 for 65 on debut in the first test as England won.
  2. 6 for 42 in the first innings of the second test and
  3. 7 for 121 in the second innings of the 2nd test as england lost
  4. He bowled only 7 overs in the 3rd test as he twisted his knee and missed the last two Tests also and England proceeded to lose four Tests in a row.
It is not difficult to see how much Barnes, on his very first tour ay 28, meant to the England side. His 19 wickets in the three tests he played (taken in the first two really) were the highest by any England bowler and cost him 17 runs each.

4. Why was he taken to Australia? Because those 316 balls he bowled in 1901 were in a solitary match he played for Lancashire in 1901. His only match for two years. He took 6 for 70 and his skipper was Archie MacLaren the man who was chosen to lead England that winter.

5. Should he have played earlier? Maybe. But thank God he did play in that one first class game under MacLaren in 1901 or we would not even have heard of him !

6. England played a total of 62 tests from Barnes debut in 1901 to his last game in 1914. Of these he played only 27! What we need to ask ourselves is what his figures would have looked like had he played all those games.

7. Its not as if he was dropped for lack of performance. He NEVER EVER failed in a series (even where he played just a solitary test. Have a look.

Code:
[B]Series Year/Opponents     O     M     R     W     5w     10w     Best     Avg     S/R     E/R[/B]
1901-1902 AUS v ENG    138.2    33    323    19    3    1     7/121    17    43.68    2.33
1902 (Home) ENG v AUS    32    13    99    7    1    0     6/49    14.14    27.43    3.09
1907-1908 AUS v ENG    273.2    74    626    24    2    0     7/60    26.08    68.33    2.29
1909 (Home) ENG v AUS    155.3    52    340    17    2    0     6/63    20    54.88    2.19
1911-1912 AUS v ENG    297    64    778    34    3    0     5/44    22.88    52.41    2.62
1912 Triangular Series    190    64    404    39    6    3     8/29    10.36    29.23    2.13
1913-1914 SAF v ENG    226    56    536    49    7    3     9/103    10.94    27.67    2.37
[COLOR="DarkRed"]Overall (7 series)    1312.1    356    3106    189    24    7     9/103    16.43    41.66    2.37[/COLOR]
So how was he faring as against his contemporaries.

8. In the 27 tests that England played him, he took 189 wickets as we know at 16.04 and a strike rate of 41.6.

Here is how other England bowlers fared in those 27 games.

Number of wickets taken
Overall by all England Bowlers : 475

Leading Wicket takers :
Code:
[B]Bowler    Wickets[/B]
[COLOR="DarkRed"]Barnes    189[/COLOR]
Foster    45
Rhodes    33
Cr'ford    30
Woolley    29
Fielder    25
Blythe    21
JWHT    20
Braund    18
Top averages
Code:
[B]Bowler    Average[/B]
[COLOR="DarkRed"]Barnes    16.4[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Navy"][B]Rest      28.9[/B][/COLOR]

Woolley    19.9
Foster    20.6
Cr'ford    24.7
Fielder    25.1
Blythe    26.3
JWHT    27.3
Brearley    27.3
Rhodes    32.2
Hearne    48.1
Top Strike Rates

Code:
[B]Bowler    Str rate[/B]
[COLOR="DarkRed"]Barnes    41.6[/COLOR]
[B][COLOR="Navy"]REST    60.6[/COLOR][/B]
   
Woolley    43.6
Crawford    47.5
Fielder    51.9
Blythe    52.9
Foster    54.3
JWHT    59.7
Rhodes    70.6
Hearne    72.0
Brearley    88.4
Hutchings    90.0
Braund    103.7
Hirst    130.5
It goes on and on.

  • He had 24 five fors in these 27 games. All others put together had 17.
  • Seven times he took ten or more wickets in a test and only once, in these 27 games did any other England bowler, Frank Woolley, take a ten for.
  • Yet he missed 35 Tests while playing just 27 !!

These are the stats we need to keep in mind when assessing this remarkable bowler.

By the way, 15 of those 27 tests, England played him in, were between 1909 to 1914 when he was between 36 and 41 years old. England preferred to ignore him when he was at his peak. People talk that he got better as he grew older. Thats only because he took more Test wickets as he got older and thats because he wasn't played earlier.

Between 1903 and 1907 England played 18 Tests in four series and excluded him in every single one of them.

I would like to believe that Hadlee might have been chasing Barnes' record rather than Botham's if England selectors had done a better job.

Finally, just to show what this 'club' bowler could do, he actually played against three international sides well into his fifties. Here is what happened.

  • In September 1927, Barnes, now 54, played against the touring New Zealanders in a first class game. In 35 overs he took 4 for 47 including the legendary Charlie Dempster.
  • Then, next year, against the visiting West Indians, our man Barnes, bowled 27 overs (almost non-stop it seems since the innings lasted exactly 60 overs) and took 7 West Indian wickets for 51 runs. He was past 55 years.

    He took another five wickets in the second innings and Wales actually won the match. Barnes got Challenor in both innings.
  • In 1929, it was the turn of the South Africans. In under 14 overs, 5 of which were maidens, Barnes took 6 South African wickets for a mere 28 runs. These included South African greats Bruce Mitchell and Herbie Taylor. Mitchell was Bradman's contemporary and played his last Test in 1949. So much for the argument based on the bad wickets of the early 20th century. He took another 4 in the second knock as Wales came close to defeating the visitors losing by just 10 runs!!

Five 5 - fors in 3 matches against touring sides spread over three years including two ten wicket or more per match hauls and this man was into his mid-fifties!!! You may give any argument you want but this is the performance of a master craftsman whose skills were so great that no amount of ravages wrought by time could dim their brilliance.

It is so sad, that Barnes did not get to play a match against Bradman's Australians in 1930. That would have been magnificient. A young all time great against a champion bowler in the 58th year of his amazing career.

I think while if he had played all those Tests in the first decade of the 20th century he could have been close to 400 wicket mark, imagine if he had continued after the first world war !!

PHEW!!!"
 

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
SJS on Sydney Barnes.

"If anyone wants to understand Barnes and his performances, you have to look at various aspects of his career. Some are covered here athers not .

1. Barnes did not play much first class cricket because of financial considerations. The money he made and the security that the Minor Counties offered him made him very reluctant to play for Lancashire, not because he wasn't good enough.

2. One can detect the condescending tone when people talk of the 'club' cricket he played in so far as Minor Counties Cricket is concerned. I dont want to comment on the quality of Minor Counties cricket and today's club cricket but clearly they were not as good as the County Championships and yes Barnes hardly played in first class cricket. Here is how many BALLS (yes balls not overs) he delivered in each year till 1901


  • 1894 : ZILCH (1 match)
  • 1895 : 275 (2 matches)
  • 1896 : 115 (1 match)
  • 1897 : ZILCH
  • 1898 : ZILCH
  • 1899 : 375 (1 match)
  • 1900 : ZILCH
  • 1901 : 216
Thats it. 981 deliveries or 163 overs and 5 matches in 8 years !!

And yet he was selected for the English side for the 1901-02 tour of Australia. Well he must have been some bowler to play just 'club' cricket and yet be taken to Australia.

3. In Australia in Tests he took
  1. 5 for 65 on debut in the first test as England won.
  2. 6 for 42 in the first innings of the second test and
  3. 7 for 121 in the second innings of the 2nd test as england lost
  4. He bowled only 7 overs in the 3rd test as he twisted his knee and missed the last two Tests also and England proceeded to lose four Tests in a row.
It is not difficult to see how much Barnes, on his very first tour ay 28, meant to the England side. His 19 wickets in the three tests he played (taken in the first two really) were the highest by any England bowler and cost him 17 runs each.

4. Why was he taken to Australia? Because those 316 balls he bowled in 1901 were in a solitary match he played for Lancashire in 1901. His only match for two years. He took 6 for 70 and his skipper was Archie MacLaren the man who was chosen to lead England that winter.

5. Should he have played earlier? Maybe. But thank God he did play in that one first class game under MacLaren in 1901 or we would not even have heard of him !

6. England played a total of 62 tests from Barnes debut in 1901 to his last game in 1914. Of these he played only 27! What we need to ask ourselves is what his figures would have looked like had he played all those games.

7. Its not as if he was dropped for lack of performance. He NEVER EVER failed in a series (even where he played just a solitary test. Have a look.

Code:
[B]Series Year/Opponents     O     M     R     W     5w     10w     Best     Avg     S/R     E/R[/B]
1901-1902 AUS v ENG    138.2    33    323    19    3    1     7/121    17    43.68    2.33
1902 (Home) ENG v AUS    32    13    99    7    1    0     6/49    14.14    27.43    3.09
1907-1908 AUS v ENG    273.2    74    626    24    2    0     7/60    26.08    68.33    2.29
1909 (Home) ENG v AUS    155.3    52    340    17    2    0     6/63    20    54.88    2.19
1911-1912 AUS v ENG    297    64    778    34    3    0     5/44    22.88    52.41    2.62
1912 Triangular Series    190    64    404    39    6    3     8/29    10.36    29.23    2.13
1913-1914 SAF v ENG    226    56    536    49    7    3     9/103    10.94    27.67    2.37
[COLOR="DarkRed"]Overall (7 series)    1312.1    356    3106    189    24    7     9/103    16.43    41.66    2.37[/COLOR]
So how was he faring as against his contemporaries.

8. In the 27 tests that England played him, he took 189 wickets as we know at 16.04 and a strike rate of 41.6.

Here is how other England bowlers fared in those 27 games.

Number of wickets taken
Overall by all England Bowlers : 475

Leading Wicket takers :
Code:
[B]Bowler    Wickets[/B]
[COLOR="DarkRed"]Barnes    189[/COLOR]
Foster    45
Rhodes    33
Cr'ford    30
Woolley    29
Fielder    25
Blythe    21
JWHT    20
Braund    18
Top averages
Code:
[B]Bowler    Average[/B]
[COLOR="DarkRed"]Barnes    16.4[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Navy"][B]Rest      28.9[/B][/COLOR]

Woolley    19.9
Foster    20.6
Cr'ford    24.7
Fielder    25.1
Blythe    26.3
JWHT    27.3
Brearley    27.3
Rhodes    32.2
Hearne    48.1
Top Strike Rates

Code:
[B]Bowler    Str rate[/B]
[COLOR="DarkRed"]Barnes    41.6[/COLOR]
[B][COLOR="Navy"]REST    60.6[/COLOR][/B]
  
Woolley    43.6
Crawford    47.5
Fielder    51.9
Blythe    52.9
Foster    54.3
JWHT    59.7
Rhodes    70.6
Hearne    72.0
Brearley    88.4
Hutchings    90.0
Braund    103.7
Hirst    130.5
It goes on and on.

  • He had 24 five fors in these 27 games. All others put together had 17.
  • Seven times he took ten or more wickets in a test and only once, in these 27 games did any other England bowler, Frank Woolley, take a ten for.
  • Yet he missed 35 Tests while playing just 27 !!

These are the stats we need to keep in mind when assessing this remarkable bowler.

By the way, 15 of those 27 tests, England played him in, were between 1909 to 1914 when he was between 36 and 41 years old. England preferred to ignore him when he was at his peak. People talk that he got better as he grew older. Thats only because he took more Test wickets as he got older and thats because he wasn't played earlier.

Between 1903 and 1907 England played 18 Tests in four series and excluded him in every single one of them.

I would like to believe that Hadlee might have been chasing Barnes' record rather than Botham's if England selectors had done a better job.

Finally, just to show what this 'club' bowler could do, he actually played against three international sides well into his fifties. Here is what happened.

  • In September 1927, Barnes, now 54, played against the touring New Zealanders in a first class game. In 35 overs he took 4 for 47 including the legendary Charlie Dempster.
  • Then, next year, against the visiting West Indians, our man Barnes, bowled 27 overs (almost non-stop it seems since the innings lasted exactly 60 overs) and took 7 West Indian wickets for 51 runs. He was past 55 years.

    He took another five wickets in the second innings and Wales actually won the match. Barnes got Challenor in both innings.
  • In 1929, it was the turn of the South Africans. In under 14 overs, 5 of which were maidens, Barnes took 6 South African wickets for a mere 28 runs. These included South African greats Bruce Mitchell and Herbie Taylor. Mitchell was Bradman's contemporary and played his last Test in 1949. So much for the argument based on the bad wickets of the early 20th century. He took another 4 in the second knock as Wales came close to defeating the visitors losing by just 10 runs!!

Five 5 - fors in 3 matches against touring sides spread over three years including two ten wicket or more per match hauls and this man was into his mid-fifties!!! You may give any argument you want but this is the performance of a master craftsman whose skills were so great that no amount of ravages wrought by time could dim their brilliance.

It is so sad, that Barnes did not get to play a match against Bradman's Australians in 1930. That would have been magnificient. A young all time great against a champion bowler in the 58th year of his amazing career.

I think while if he had played all those Tests in the first decade of the 20th century he could have been close to 400 wicket mark, imagine if he had continued after the first world war !!

PHEW!!!"
Looks like no poll required for Barnes either.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
CricketWeb First XI (Tests)

Jack Hobbs
Len Hutton
Don Bradman
Sachin Tendulkar
-
-
Adam Gilchrist +
-
Shane Warne
Malcolm Marshall
Glenn McGrath




Next selections

- Select another pure batsman/batting all rounder capable of batting at #5 or #6

- Select another pure bowler/bowling all rounder to join Marshall, McGrath and Warne as the main 4 bowlers.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
I've made a decision to limit players for this exercise to post WW1. This will obviously exlude players like WG Grace and SF Barnes.

I think there was a shift in the game at that time, and players from that era are more difficult to judge. In order to honour pre WW1 players, at the completion of this exercise we'll select a pre WW1 XI as well.
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
Imran
Muralitharan

I would love to pick 2 great spinners (of 2 varieties) in the XI, plus 3 pacers. Would be great if one of them was Hadlee for balance but still will go with above.
 

Nikhil99.99

U19 Cricketer
Hammond

Picked Barnes but saw that players who played after WW1 can only be chosed so Steyn
 
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