Adrian Chiles brings you the coverage complaints thread

[sledger]

No, it's because the feigned injury theatrics look outright ridiculous to watch

Which have nothing to do with the complaints about the game being "soft"? We've just had pages of discussion about this.

 

[Tom Halsey]

The difference with the type of foul described by Murphy is you generally don't expect to get away with it. You take the booking for the team. Different to feigning Injury to try and have an opponent sent off, which is clearly deceptive.

True but it doesn't get away from the fact that a commentator praising and therefore encouraging deliberate breaking of the rules is dire, whether the breaking of those rules is deceptive or not.

 

[GIMH]

True but it doesn't get away from the fact that a commentator praising and therefore encouraging deliberate breaking of the rules is dire, whether the breaking of those rules is deceptive or not.

I don't think it is dire tbh. His job is to praise him for doing things that will help his team

I guess you could make that case for diving too of course, which is where I think Sledger has a point, and it's why I think it's just the deception that you can use to separate them.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Deliberately breaking the rules would be a pretty good definition of cheating IMO.

 

[GIMH]

I didn't say otherwise tbf.

I'd rather my defender did that every time than my team get beat.

I wasn't exactly disgusted when Owen won his penalty against the Argies in 02 either

On reflection I guess it is a double standard but I personally think Murphy was right to praise said tactic. I accept this is slightly hypocritical as I don't like diving but I do think there is a difference between the two as I've said.

 

[sledger]

I don't think there's any difference in someone saying "good foul" and "good dive" to be honest. Intentionally fouling someone is no more, and no less, a breach of the rules than diving. One might be more deceptive than the other, but they are both outside the limits of what is permitted. For some reason diving is thought as being despicable, which in no small part is linked to all this "soft" crap we've seen talked about recently, but professional fouls are for some reason thought of as honourable.

For me diving and spoiler-type fouls are both dire, though I do consider diving to be worse, because as others have said, it is probably more dishonest. However, for people like Murphy to get terribly upset about one but actually praise the other is just total hypocrisy in my opinion. And for a commentator to come out and say these things is just absolutely shocking, sets a terrible example.

 

[GIMH]

No point going round in circles but again, I disagree. It's honest analysis.

Suarez should have been praised for what he did against Ghana last time too

 

[sledger]

No point going round in circles but again, I disagree. It's honest analysis.

Suarez should have been praised for what he did against Ghana last time too

Haha, this is the thing though. Why do commentators not praise players who dive and get penalties? They may as well do if they are happy to endorse professional fouls. Both serve the same purpose (i.e. they're a way of helping your team get the desired result). If a commentator was to do this there'd be an outcry, but is there any logical reason for this distinction?

 

[Tom Halsey]

I didn't say otherwise tbf.

I'd rather my defender did that every time than my team get beat.

I wasn't exactly disgusted when Owen won his penalty against the Argies in 02 either

On reflection I guess it is a double standard but I personally think Murphy was right to praise said tactic. I accept this is slightly hypocritical as I don't like diving but I do think there is a difference between the two as I've said.

I really just don't get this though. Obviously diving and deliberate fouling aren't literally identical, but they are both cheating, and cheating is cheating. Obviously you would rather your defender fouled someone rather than conceding a goal if you were supporting a specific side, but by the same logic you would also rather your centre forward dived to win you a penalty rather than him not doing so, as you alluded to with Owen.

As an impartial commentator though praising any form of cheating is dire. Both diving and making a "good foul" deliberately are praiseworthy if we are ignoring morals (for want of a better word) and just looking at it from the point of view of a player doing his best by his team. Neither are praiseworthy if we are trying to discourage cheating, which I assume we are.

 

[GIMH]

Well this is where I'm at cross purposes with you. Murphy's job, to my knowledge, is not to promote fair play but to provide analysis.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Well this is where I'm at cross purposes with you. Murphy's job, to my knowledge, is not to promote fair play but to provide analysis.

Would you have thought it was fine if he had said "good dive" had someone won a penalty by diving? Fair enough if so.

 

[sledger]

I really just don't get this though. Obviously diving and deliberate fouling aren't literally identical, but they are both cheating, and cheating is cheating. Obviously you would rather your defender fouled someone rather than conceding a goal if you were supporting a specific side, but by the same logic you would also rather your centre forward dived to win you a penalty rather than him not doing so, as you alluded to with Owen.

As an impartial commentator though praising any form of cheating is dire. Both diving and making a "good foul" deliberately are praiseworthy if we are ignoring morals (for want of a better word) and just looking at it from the point of view of a player doing his best by his team. Neither are praiseworthy if we are trying to discourage cheating, which I assume we are.

Yes, precisely my thoughts. Couldn't have put it any better.

 

[Howe_zat]

Which have nothing to do with the complaints about the game being "soft"? We've just had pages of discussion about this.

I'm saying that trying to claim that all complaints about diving are accusing footballers of being 'soft' is dishonest. The main reason the practise is criticised (as soft or as something else) is because it looks stupid.

 

[sledger]

I'm saying that trying to claim that all complaints about diving are accusing footballers of being 'soft' is dishonest.

Nobody has said this, so I'm not sure who you are accusing of dishonesty.

 

[GIMH]

Would you have thought it was fine if he had said "good dive" had someone won a penalty by diving? Fair enough if so.

I admit it doesn't sit as easily with me, partially for hypocritical reasons and partly because of the way I have been reared on the game. Tactical fouls have always been something we accept, I guess. But ultimately I'd be impressed if he had the balls to say that.

Owen comes close to doing it in the games he commentates actually, talking about strikers playing for penalties intelligently and what not

 

[Uppercut]

Yeah I agree with Corrin. He's a commentator, not one of football's sacred moral guardians.

If anything I don't think commentators do it enough, because most fans aren't aware of how many fouls are tactical, especially from strikers. It's a flaw in the rules of the game that isn't highlighted often enough. Maybe 40 years ago we could rely on commentators to prevent it from ruining the game by furrowing their brows at it, but football is too professional now.

 

[sledger]

Then why is it alright for him to get all high and mighty with anyone who'll listen about diving and play acting? For someone who's not one of football's moral guardians he certainly seems to think of himself as one when it comes to these sorts of matters.

 

[Uppercut]

Yeah the condemnation of diving and acceptance of tactical fouls is one of my favourite rant-subjects. Given the choice I'd rather he just call a good dive a good dive too.

 

[sledger]

Yeah the condemnation of diving and acceptance of tactical fouls is one of my favourite rant-subjects. Given the choice I'd rather he just call a good dive a good dive too.

Fair dos. I disagree with him doing either, but I'd rather he called a spade a spade than promulgate a complete double standard.

 

[sledger]

Language warning etc...