Shane Warne vs Dale Steyn

[honestbharani]

makes sense.

I make Warne bat with Macko

Gilchrist
Warne
Wasim
Marshall
Ambrose

 

[honestbharani]

I mean it could be Steyn in at 11 as I feel he would do better as a 3rd seamer but I feel him and Marshall are similar type bowlers and I would want a keep it tight off a length bowler as my 3rd fast bowler and I feel Ambrose is still the best at it even though he took the new ball almost all the time. McGrath would be fine too but somehow in my mind, Ambrose was always almost unhittable.

 

[Bolo.]

What kind of response is that? Yeah he got results that doesn't mean he had no weaknesses in his game vs Warne. I gave an actual issue Murali had and backed it up with examples. If you are too lazy to address it then just say so and pretend Murali was perfect.


Sure let's look at how he did in Australia and India then the strongest lineups. Oh yeah he was crap. But by all means just focus on overall wickets to make you feel better.

Sorry but I'm not ranking Murali over Warne or Hadlee over McGrath based on WPI.

OFC he has weakness vs Warne. That's how it works with two bowlers of very similar quality. But the stats or what I saw of him don't suggest Murali was a defensive bowler. And if he was, it seems to have been the right call. But go ahead and big up on Warne. I rank him higher than you, and that works for me.

Sure, Murali was terrible in AUS and India. But for context:
Murali in Aus 1.83 WPI*
Murali in Ind 2.86 WPI
Murali in Aus and India combined 2.55 WPI

For context, some GOAT candidates careers:
Mcgrath 2.32 WPI
Marshall 2.49 WPI
Warne 2.59
Hadlee 2.87
Murali 3.47

Obviously, Murali is filth in terms of bowling averages in Aus and India. But we are discussing wickets.

 

[subshakerz]

OFC he has weakness vs Warne. That's how it works with two bowlers of very similar quality. But the stats or what I saw of him don't suggest Murali was a defensive bowler. And if he was, it seems to have been the right call. But go ahead and big up on Warne. I rank him higher than you, and that works for me.

Thanks for acknowledging his weakness. You can still be defensive in approach and get wickets. Don't know what stats you are referring to.

Sure, Murali was terrible in AUS and India. But for context:
Murali in Aus 1.83 WPI*
Murali in Ind 2.86 WPI
Murali in Aus and India combined 2.55 WPI

For context, some GOAT candidates careers:
Mcgrath 2.32 WPI
Marshall 2.49 WPI
Warne 2.59
Hadlee 2.87
Murali 3.47

Obviously, Murali is filth in terms of bowling averages in Aus and India. But we are discussing wickets.

Murali literally gets more WPI because he is a spinner, he can bowl insane amounts of overs and there is nobody to really compete for wickets with him.

But if he is going to average over 40 I don't care what his WPI is.

 

[akilana]

Thanks for acknowledging his weakness. You can still be defensive in approach and get wickets. Don't know what stats you are referring to.

Not as quickly as an attacking bowler.

 

[subshakerz]

Not as quickly as an attacking bowler.

If you are accurate enough and spin it a mile then yes.

 

[akilana]

If you are accurate enough and spin it a mile then yes.

so warne didn't spin it a mile and wasn't accurate?

 

[shortpitched713]

But if he is going to average over 40 I don't care what his WPI is.

For the bulk of his career it was Murali, Vaas and nothing. He's not averaging higher in certain circumstances because he's bad. It's because he's bowling in conditions which are objectively bad for him, but there is inadequate seamers who could get a comparative advantage, so he's thrown the ball.

If anything, his averages are being artificially inflated. He's bowling oftentimes with a ball that is too hard, a pitch that isn't really turning yet, and many times with Sri Lanka's opponent in the driver's seat.

It's an absolute miracle he ended up with the averages that he did, because efficiency of utilization was never a consideration for him.

 

[subshakerz]

For the bulk of his career it was Murali, Vaas and nothing. He's not averaging higher in certain circumstances because he's bad. It's because he's bowling in conditions which are objectively bad for him, but there is inadequate seamers who could get a comparative advantage, so he's thrown the ball.

If anything, his averages are being artificially inflated. He's bowling oftentimes with a ball that is too hard, a pitch that isn't really turning yet, and many times with Sri Lanka's opponent in the driver's seat.

It's an absolute miracle he ended up with the averages that he did, because efficiency of utilization was never a consideration for him.

You can't have it both ways, celebrate his WPI which is based on getting more time to bowl and then complain about getting more time to bowl when it doesn't suit him.

Spare us the miracle bit. His home pitches would have always meant he would end up with loads of wickets. Plus plenty of time against minnows. You cant ignore his advantages and just notice Warnes.

 

[Bolo.]

Thanks for acknowledging his weakness. You can still be defensive in approach and get wickets. Don't know what stats you are referring to.


Murali literally gets more WPI because he is a spinner, he can bowl insane amounts of overs and there is nobody to really compete for wickets with him.

But if he is going to average over 40 I don't care what his WPI is.

Spinners will always have holes in their records. Spin is much more condition dependent. Spin is a necessity. Better to have a spinner with one or two holes than many. Warne and Murali are >> other spinners in a way that quicks are not.

Imran is > others cos he took more wickets per game away, despite averaging mid 20s away.


Murali is not > than others, for taking more wickets away in the mid 20s.

Do you see the issue? Murali has a 40%+ish advantage on wickets per match or innings.

Do you want to argue that spin is fundamentally better than pace?

 

[subshakerz]

Imran is > others cos he took more wickets per game away, despite averaging mid 20s away.

Where did I say this? Stop misrepresenting me. I only mentioned that do specific countries. I don't use that in a raw stat sense.

 

[shortpitched713]

You can't have it both ways, celebrate his WPI which is based on getting more time to bowl and then complain about getting more time to bowl when it doesn't suit him.

I'm not. If his average was generally higher in most circumstances I'd say that it's a problem for Murali. But it's not. But the haters cherrypick a negative perfect storm conditions to prove he had some holes when it's not really valid.

I use a similar workload argument for saying if push comes to shove Hadlee > Marshall. But generally I just put them all in the same tier, as leaders of their attacks in different quality teams who all did as well as they could possibly be expected to do.

Warne is different because I think he was generally in a perfect storm in his favor to an extent that vastly exceeds any of the others.

 

[subshakerz]

I'm not. If his average was generally higher in most circumstances I'd say that it's a problem for Murali. But it's not. But the haters cherrypick a negative perfect storm conditions to prove he had some holes when it's not really valid.

How much higher is too high?

For example, without minnows, Murali averages 28 away from home. Is that a problem? Though again I don't like using raw stats to determine this stuff, but you brought it up.

 

[Bolo.]

I'm not. If his average was generally higher in most circumstances I'd say that it's a problem for Murali. But it's not. But the haters cherrypick a negative perfect storm conditions to prove he had some holes when it's not really valid.

I use a similar workload argument for saying if push comes to shove Hadlee > Marshall. But generally I just put them all in the same tier, as leaders of their attacks in different quality teams who all did as well as they could possibly be expected to do.

Warne is different because I think he was generally in a perfect storm in his favor to an extent that vastly exceeds any of the others.

I assume you just mean in terms of the teammates he has? That is probably very true.

He got a bad deal in terms of home pitches, and a bad deal in terms of the bats he had to bowl at in the 2000s.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

I don't have a dog in this fight but I'd give Murali some leeway where away stats are concerned. In countries Warne and Murali have in common, they tended to do similarly. They both sucked monkey balls in India but unfortunately Murali also had to contend with another atg batting lineup aka Australia.

 

[shortpitched713]

I assume you just mean in terms of the teammates he has? That is probably very true.

He got a bad deal in terms of home pitches, and a bad deal in terms of the bats he had to bowl at in the 2000s.

The teammates is the biggest thing by far, yeah. And the fact that as a spinner he could come in AFTER the GOAT pacer, and to a greater extent in second innings after his GOAT Test team teammates, allowed him to be an always attacking spinner to an extent I'd imagine was unprecedented in history.

 

[kyear2]

Yeah I'm not confident in having more than one #11 in my AT XI (McGrath is my #11)

That's an interesting way to look at it.

So what then if or when Bumrah emerges as a candidate for first change?

Marshall | Warne | Bumrah | McGrath

Would be a bridge too far?

Would take it without a 2nd thought.

 

[Johan]

That's an interesting way to look at it.

So what then if or when Bumrah emerges as a candidate for first change?

Marshall | Warne | Bumrah | McGrath

Would be a bridge too far?

Would take it without a 2nd thought.

I think I'd have Hadlee there

I genuinely believe that the value of lower order batting gets underrated, in last 6 months I can think of three tests that were saved by batsmen of Warne's capability or downright won due to them.

 

[subshakerz]

That's an interesting way to look at it.

So what then if or when Bumrah emerges as a candidate for first change?

Marshall | Warne | Bumrah | McGrath

Would be a bridge too far?

Would take it without a 2nd thought.

Bumrah takes Marshall's place.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Bumrah takes Marshall's place.

Tf he does. Marshall is better batsman, fielder and can actually last a full 5 tests. Their bowling is about even.