Is imran overated as bowler

[kyear2]

I think Imran is fairly rated here as a bowler, neither under-rated nor over-rated. He is the 6th or 7th best quick bowler in history for me and there is a reasonable case for him making top 5.

On a side note, though irrelevant for this thread, he is a bit over-rated as a batsman. His output in his secondary skill isn't comparable to Sobers or Botham.

Agree with most of that, and pretty fair.

Think he Donald and Lillee for a little cluster from 6.

Top 10 overall bowler

 

[capt_Luffy]

Agree with most of that, and pretty fair.

Think he Donald and Lillee for a little cluster from 6.

Top 10 overall bowler

Think Lillee belongs in the one with Garner, Holding, Lindwall and Trueman

 

[subshakerz]

Imran barely took 70% of Kapil's wickets in ODIs at a similar average. If you further reduce the sample size to 50% of Kapil's wickets, you are going to get a period when he averaged 21-22. It is penalizing Kapil's consistency in ODIs for a much larger sample size while cherry picking Imran's stats.

I think Imran is over-rated as an ODI bowler, though not in tests.

I am talking about 80 percent of Imran's career (15 years) being a worldclass bowler averaging 22/23 until his last three years when he was pretty much a part time bowler.

Whereas you are talking about picking a worldclass phase in the middle for Kapil by ignoring half his career (his career average never dropped below 26/27 correct me if I am wrong). How is that consistency if he was that poor for half his career?

You are the one cherrypicking moreso, not me.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I am talking about 80 percent of Imran's career being a worldclass bowler averaging 22/23 until his last three years when he was pretty much a part time bowler.

Whereas you are talking about picking a worldclass phase in the middle for Kapil by ignoring half his career (his career average never dropped below 25/26 correct me if I am wrong). How is that consistency if he was that poor for half his career?

You are the one cherrypicking moreso, not me.

The lowest Kapil averaged was 23.96 in 1986 after 80 ODIs. Depending on where you think the "wordclass bowler" stretch of Imran ends, it might be comparable for Kapil imo. He was a pretty great ODI bowler for ages. His averages tanked pretty hard in his last few years.

 

[subshakerz]

The lowest Kapil averaged was 23.96 in 1986 after 80 ODIs. Depending on where you think the "wordclass bowler" stretch of Imran ends, it might be comparable for Kapil imo. He was a pretty great ODI bowler for ages. His averages tanked pretty hard in his last few years.

He averaged 24 after 80 games.

But that is around 1/3rd of his entire career sample. After that he averaged nearly 30 for 145 games.

Imran after 15 years of playing averaged 23 after 136 games, he played 175 in total.

 

[OverratedSanity]

He averaged 24 after 80 games.

But that is around 1/3rd of his entire career sample. After that he averaged nearly 30 for 145 games.

Imran after 15 years of playing averaged 23 after 136 games, he played 175 in total.

I just gave you the lowest his average got, but he was still really good after that for ages too . Kapil's average was around 25.5 after 175 ODIs (the length of Imran's career). The difference between them isn't particularly big at all even with these caveats.

 

[kyear2]

I think Imran is fairly rated here as a bowler, neither under-rated nor over-rated. He is the 6th or 7th best quick bowler in history for me and there is a reasonable case for him making top 5.

On a side note, though irrelevant for this thread, he is a bit over-rated as a batsman. His output in his secondary skill isn't comparable to Sobers or Botham.

I think Imran is rated pretty accurately here as a bowler. Outside CW I think he's overlooked as a top bowler because people think of him as first as a great allrounder and captain, but he was one of the greatest 5-10 bowlers to walk the earth on top of that.

I think I used to overrate his batting a little bit.

Good to see that everyone's coming along.

 

[Randomfan]

Dude, I really don't get how you think Imran was a class ahead of Kapil as an ODI bowler.....

IK's peak rating in ODI is 743 points. Kapil's bowler's rating over a big part of his career is higher than IK's peak rating. Ratings do have flaws, but difference is a big one.

Rating trend for both,



Just a specualtion, but I think IK getting bashed by WI may have costed him lots of points. Against WI, IK' ER was 4.3 and Kapil's ER was 3.6. How you do against higher rated oppositions plays a part.


Here is ranking trend for both,



IK best ever ranking in ODI is 5 and pretty much entire career was outside of 10. In contrast, Kapil's highest ranking was 1 and bulk of his career ranking was top 5.

As I said, ranting/ranking have flaws but when difference is massive then it says something about both players. Same rating/ranking looks other way around in the test format with one difference. Kapil spent bulk of his career in test in top 10 while IK spent bulk of his ODI career outside of top 10.

--------------------------------------

In context of this tread, Ik being rated high in Test is not over rating it. But in ODI, he doesn't have much to be rated high. He wasn't even top 10 for most of his career during his playing days in ODI format.

Rating IK high in ODI is surely over rating it. I know lots of excuse will starts coming about count only this or count only that or how he missed playing, but when all said and done if you are behind your peer goup in ranking/rating by such a largin margin then you shouldn't be rated high in ODI format.

 

[Randomfan]

In test cricket,

IK is top 8-10 pacers for sure. I don't see a case for him not featuring in top 10.
Batting is over rated because he just has 3800 career runs. But 3800 runs with good average is very good for an all rounder. Some others have claim to have a better secondary skills than Ik and then based on all readings, IK was not a great fielder.

Over all top 3 test all rounder.

 

[Prince EWS]

Good to see that everyone's coming along.

I used to have him ahead of Bradman so it was a high bar.

 

[subshakerz]

I just gave you the lowest his average got, but he was still really good after that for ages too . Kapil's average was around 25.5 after 175 ODIs (the length of Imran's career). The difference between them isn't particularly big at all even with these caveats.

In the end both suffered at the dog end of their careers but I just feel that for a majority of their respective careers Imran was better. Though I will concede that overall the difference is smaller, I just don't see a case for Kapil being better.

 

[subshakerz]

IK's peak rating in ODI is 743 points. Kapil's bowler's rating over a big part of his career is higher than IK's peak rating. Ratings do have flaws, but difference is a big one.

Rating trend for both,

View attachment 46021

Just a specualtion, but I think IK getting bashed by WI may have costed him lots of points. Against WI, IK' ER was 4.3 and Kapil's ER was 3.6. How you do against higher rated oppositions plays a part.


Here is ranking trend for both,
View attachment 46022


IK best ever ranking in ODI is 5 and pretty much entire career was outside of 10. In contrast, Kapil's highest ranking was 1 and bulk of his career ranking was top 5.

As I said, ranting/ranking have flaws but when difference is massive then it says something about both players. Same rating/ranking looks other way around in the test format with one difference. Kapil spent bulk of his career in test in top 10 while IK spent bulk of his ODI career outside of top 10.

--------------------------------------

In context of this tread, Ik being rated high in Test is not over rating it. But in ODI, he doesn't have much to be rated high. He wasn't even top 10 for most of his career during his playing days in ODI format.

Rating IK high in ODI is surely over rating it. I know lots of excuse will starts coming about count only this or count only that or how he missed playing, but when all said and done if you are behind your peer goup in ranking/rating by such a largin margin then you shouldn't be rated high in ODI format.

These ratings are never really reliable I find.

 

[smash84]

Because he was a class ahead for the longest stretch of their careers until his final 3 years when he basically was a part timer. Whereas Kapil was never worldclass standard.

You're indulging in a bit of revisionism here. I lived through the era, nobody thought Kapil wasn't world class in ODIs.

It was easy to conflate his test performances with his ODI, but nobody doubted that Kapil was a great ODI bowler. He didn't have Imran's pace but he had more variety. He could bowl lots of cutters and swing the new ball too.

 

[capt_Luffy]

In the end both suffered at the dog end of their careers but I just feel that for a majority of their respective careers Imran was better. Though I will concede that overall the difference is smaller, I just don't see a case for Kapil being better.

In the last poll, Kapil came in 27th and IK 39th (I atleast started voting for him when we were in top 30 still)

 

[sayon basak]

I just don't see a case for Kapil being better.

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[Randomfan]

These ratings are never really reliable I find.

Agree mostly for shorter periods and also when gap is not big one, but if gap is massive over long period they it's a decent indicator.

I do think that even that indicator has issues due to players intentioanlly missing games in 3 format eras. I meant, all players don't play all games due to intentional rotation. I may be wrong, but I read that Kapil rarely missed games so that may have helped him with ranking/ratings as well.

 

[Randomfan]

These ratings are never really reliable I find.

Curious to hear it's being unreliable when it points of certain trend over a longer period.

I meant a massive gap over a long period when players have played at the same time. Do you have examples to share where you found it wrong in such situations. I will apprecaite if you can cite examples in test format because it's easier to see players standing historically due to less changes.

I have found that a masive gap over a long period a good indication of players standing when they played at the same time. Narrow gap or short duration, I have come across issues as well.

 

[kyear2]

Their averages may be in the same ballpark, output isn't.

Sobers was the 6th or 7th most prolific bowler in history when he retired. I am not sure if Imran was in the top 15 prolific batsmen of his time, let alone all time when he retired.

The thing is that Imran is very similar to Kallis based on the fact that they both have the averages but not the output. And that's his secondary comp.

He's ahead as a cricketer because he's ahead of Kallis on primary, but Imran's batting is way more comparable to Kallis's bowling. Slightly ahead, but comparable.

 

[kyear2]

Think Lillee belongs in the one with Garner, Holding, Lindwall and Trueman

We can agree to disagree.

Lillee was better than Imran for the first half of his career and when asked to this day many from the era still rates Lillee ahead of Imran and Hadlee.

 

[kyear2]

In test cricket,

IK is top 8-10 pacers for sure. I don't see a case for him not featuring in top 10.
Batting is over rated because he just has 3800 career runs. But 3800 runs with good average is very good for an all rounder. Some others have claim to have a better secondary skills than Ik and then based on all readings, IK was not a great fielder.

Over all top 3 test all rounder.

That's not in doubt. I rate 5 elite all rounders.

Sobers, Imran, Kallis, Gilchrist and Miller, I also think I can make an argument for Hammond and Hadlee.The first 3 though are just a little higher.

Trying to figure out if for my rankings if I want to rate elite all rounders as an elite skill. Not sure how that works though.