Kapil Dev vs Courtney Walsh

[capt_Luffy]

Yes he was. Just not arsed to put his head down and play. During Viv's time, he was not in the top 10 best players of spin in the world. There were dozen of Indians and Pakistanis who wore it. Pakistanis sent the spin quartet to retirement FFS.

More like Pakistani pitches did since their own spinners did 50+ as well

 

[Migara]

And the likes of LLoyd and Kallicharran

Yes, Lloyd and Kalicharan were bloody good players of spin.

However none of them destroyed Qadir on spinning pitches like Indians, or Indian spin quartet on spinning tracks like Pakistani line up.

 

[Migara]

More like Pakistani pitches did since their own spinners did 50+ as well

you cannot guage qualities of a pitch or a spinner in 80s, if it was an India - Pakistan match. It was 75% Indian batting against Pakistani bowling, 25% visa vis. Spinners were just a side show.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yes, Lloyd and Kalicharan were bloody good players of spin.

However none of them destroyed Qadir on spinning pitches like Indians, or Indian spin quartet on spinning tracks like Pakistani line up.

They both did the quartet in spinning pitches in India. As did Viv, both away and especially at Home when the quartet was Great

 

[Johan]

Yes he was. Just not arsed to put his head down and play. During Viv's time, he was not in the top 10 best players of spin in the world. There were dozen of Indians and Pakistanis who wore it. Pakistanis sent the spin quartet to retirement FFS.

.....Zaheer did it on the flattest wickets ever with corrupt umpires who'd never give him out if he was playing well, killing a spinner on roads isn't an impressive feat, Zaheer averaged 28 in India for a reason, Javed was also easily sorted by Doshi in 79, Viv in his first ever series averaged 50 in India against the actual quaret.

 

[Migara]

They both did the quartet in spinning pitches in India. As did Viv, both away and especially at Home when the quartet was Great

But not Qadir.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Yes, Lloyd and Kalicharan were bloody good players of spin.

However none of them destroyed Qadir on spinning pitches like Indians, or Indian spin quartet on spinning tracks like Pakistani line up.

Umm look up what Kallicharan did in 1974 in India. Also, look up what Viv did vs Qadir and Qasim in Pakistan 1980. Ditto Underwood in England 1976. Dev >Viv vs spin, now you're going too far. Saying he's better than all wi batsmen vs spin is absurd!@

 

[Coronis]

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Interesting that you didn’t filter for pace bowlers.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

So basically he was a bog average pace bowler (for India) and below average pace bowler in those matches (in which England pacers did better than their overall home performance across that time period)

Hobbs, Grace, Sutcliffe etc played more than 100 years ago an they're all still atgs. Therefore even 50 years from now, if im alive I'd consider the above you listed as atgs. All atgs won't make it into the world XI it's just mathematically impossible but none of them should look out of place and most times selections are completely subjective. Like the the 4 5 and 6 spots. You have to fit Lara, Viv, Sachin, Hammond, Headley, Sobers etc. Ditto the 3 pacers.

This is a hypothetical scenario where those players do not end up fitting your criteria, i.e Tendulkar and Lara look out of place in an ATG team at that point (unlikely but again, hypothetical) do you still consider them ATG?

 

[Migara]

.....Zaheer did it on the flattest wickets ever with corrupt umpires who'd never give him out if he was playing well, killing a spinner on roads isn't an impressive feat, Zaheer averaged 28 in India for a reason, Javed was also easily sorted by Doshi in 79, Viv in his first ever series averaged 50 in India against the actual quaret.

They did a cardinal mistake by dropping Chandra for the second test IIRC, who gave Viv a torrid time in the first. Once Viv scored he was confident from there on wards.

However Qadir destroyed WI line up on occasions. Never managed to do it against Indians.

 

[subshakerz]

he isn't in any serious discussion for an ATG XI

Certainly in my shortlist.

 

[Johan]

They did a cardinal mistake by dropping Chandra for the second test IIRC, who gave Viv a torrid time in the first. Once Viv scored he was confident from there on wards.

However Qadir destroyed WI line up on occasions. Never managed to do it against Indians.

Viv in games played in Pakistan when Qadir was around

5 games, 389 @ 48.62 and 4 fifties. all games were played on landmines/extremely bowler friendly pitches and he had a certain Imran Khan for support.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Interesting that you didn’t filter for pace bowlers.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

So basically he was a bog average pace bowler (for India) and below average pace bowler in those matches (in which England pacers did better than their overall home performance across that time period)




This is a hypothetical scenario where those players do not end up fitting your criteria, i.e Tendulkar and Lara look out of place in an ATG team at that point (unlikely but again, hypothetical) do you still consider them ATG?

The likes of Lara and Sachin will never look out of place in an atg xi. They may however, be pushed down in the overall rankings which is completely different. For example, if Smith retired now, for me he's pushing Lara down a spot. But both will still be on contetion for the world XI.

 

[Johan]

Certainly in my shortlist.

get the bro past Root

 

[capt_Luffy]

Interesting that you didn’t filter for pace bowlers.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

So basically he was a bog average pace bowler (for India) and below average pace bowler in those matches (in which England pacers did better than their overall home performance across that time period)




This is a hypothetical scenario where those players do not end up fitting your criteria, i.e Tendulkar and Lara look out of place in an ATG team at that point (unlikely but again, hypothetical) do you still consider them ATG?

He also basically won 3 matches single handedly, the latter led to a series victory. As I said previously, 2 Good Series, 1 mid and 1 horrible. Overall not good, but hardly bad either

 

[subshakerz]

get the bro past Root

I mean my shortlist is basically roughly three ATG sides.

 

[Migara]

Umm look up what Kallicharan did in 1974 in India. Also, look up what Viv did vs Qadir and Qasim in Pakistan 1980. Ditto Underwood in England 1976. Dev >Viv vs spin, now you're going too far. Saying he's better than all wi batsmen vs spin is absurd!@

We are talking about both Indian quartet AND Qadir. Qadir was a loose cannon and when he was bad he was really bad. But when he was good, he was Warne / Murali quality. WI succumbed to that quality Qadir on some occasions. India did not even when he was at his absolute best. That is the difference.

This is the same argument on later dates concerning Lara and spin play. There were many better players of spin than Lara in SC, but none of them were better batsmen than him because they sucked against pace.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

.....Zaheer did it on the flattest wickets ever with corrupt umpires who'd never give him out if he was playing well, killing a spinner on roads isn't an impressive feat, Zaheer averaged 28 in India for a reason, Javed was also easily sorted by Doshi in 79, Viv in his first ever series averaged 50 in India against the actual quaret.

Yeah and absolutely murdered them in the Caribbean including at the spin friendly QPO.

 

[Johan]

also, Indian players weren't invincible to spin, even the Greatest of them all struggled with Derek Underwood

 

[Johan]

I mean my shortlist is basically roughly three ATG sides.

I guess Punter can make my third side and Kapil like the fourth

 

[subshakerz]

I guess Punter can make my third side and Kapil like the fourth

Yeah third is my cut off. But Punter seems far less odd in the first ATG XI than Kapil.