Kapil Dev vs Courtney Walsh

[DrWolverine]

Dev is making it in over Gillespie

Aus would be forced to choose Gillespie or Lee

 

[Johan]

Aus would be forced to choose Gillespie or Lee

the bowling attack would look like

McGrath, Warne, Gillespie, Kapil and sometimes Macgill gets in depending on wicket, probably over Gillespie.

 

[kyear2]

Yeah except in WI when you already have three worldclass bowlers and can find a bowling AR more useful.

Think it's pretty obvious Kapil would do better if he had a home career in WI and worldclass bowling support to cushion his stats.

Walsh is a better bowler but this huge gulf you are presenting between him and Kapil doesn't exist.

The fact that you are denying this just shows your stubbornness. But not surprising given how you tend to go out of your way to downgrade SC players for some odd reason.

You mean like how I have Sunny just about top 10, Imran the 2nd best all rounder and a top 10 player. Both of whom easily makes my 2nd XI, along with the likes of Lara and ahead of guys like Ambrose. I rate Bumrah an elite top 6 talent as a fast bowler who with a bit of health and luck, has every chance to enter the top 3 debate. I rank Sachin ahead of any W.I. batsman and behind only Bradman and Hobbs. Murali along with Warne as the greatest spinner.

It would be you to start this race ****, because that's what too much of what this forum has come to.

Way too many here don't even argue players or skill sets anymore, it's about name, country and region.

I don't go out of my way to do down grade anyone, but I'm also not going out if my way to upgrade anyone based on where they're from either. And this argument, based on the context and premise of the op makes no sense. You're basically saying you're choosing your opening and best bowler based on how they bat. And again, Kallis can't be chosen over Sachin, but Kapil over Walsh? This is about names and favorites over any consistent logic.

And you're the one who openly and vocally has stated it's their goal to down grade players, be it Ambrose and Kallis because they challenge Imran, or Lara because he's too close to Sachin.

I don't rank Sachin any lower than most historians or pundits. I don't rate Imran the bowler any lower than anyone else here either. I've been among to first to acknowledge that Bumrah is already an ATG, I don't give a **** where anyone is from.

I'm consistent about how I view jack of all trades all rounders like Botham and Kapil. I'm not choosing them over a specialist who's better at their primary responsibility, but you want to bring the SC into it.

Kapil isn't a great bowler nor a great batsman, how does that player then be seen as an ATG player.

You think I like Barry because he's a South African? You obviously don't know how apartheid is viewed in the Caribbean. I want an aggressive opener who can catch, don't give two hells where he's from. He was better than Sunny when they played, that's good enough for me.

Truth be told, I actively dislike Sunny the human, but guess what. After hearing yesterday about some of the **** that Border said, he's added to the list as well.

So no, I don't go out of my way to downgrade players from the subcontinent, and I take great offence at the suggestion.

But that also doesn't change the fact that Gavaskar isn't and has never been in the BAB conversation, Kapil IMO isn't an ATG and Imran did what Imran did.

I also don't think Walsh was an ATG, I rate Steyn over Ambrose, even if marginally and Lloyd wasn't a great captain.

I include Wasim in my AT team because he deserves it, but also as I've said multiple times, you can't have a world XI with only one player from the SC.

 

[kyear2]

80s WI team would have killed for a Kapil dev over Walsh TBF. They had enough Walsh replacements. They never had Kapil Dev replacements. Even the most successful WI all rounder, Carl Hooper was very similar to Dev and was way inferior bowler. Proper AR or a class spinner was 80s WI team's holes.

But to an average side it's different. Walsh as a ATG pacer is way more valuable. And he has shown he could do it by himself when others fail too.

Yeah, Walsh easily more valuable to most sides.

But just one correction, Hooper wasn't in the team, not kept his place because of his bowling. King Carl's place was safe because he had the best pair of hands this side of Mark Waugh.

 

[subshakerz]

You mean like how I have Sunny just about top 10, Imran the 2nd best all rounder and a top 10 player. Both of whom easily makes my 2nd XI, along with the likes of Lara and ahead of guys like Ambrose. I rate Bumrah an elite top 6 talent as a fast bowler who with a bit of health and luck, has every chance to enter the top 3 debate. I rank Sachin ahead of any W.I. batsman and behind only Bradman and Hobbs. Murali along with Warne as the greatest spinner.

It would be you to start this race ****, because that's what too much of what this forum has come to.

Way too many here don't even argue players or skill sets anymore, it's about name, country and region.

I don't go out of my way to do down grade anyone, but I'm also not going out if my way to upgrade anyone based on where they're from either. And this argument, based on the context and premise of the op makes no sense. You're basically saying you're choosing your opening and best bowler based on how they bat. And again, Kallis can't be chosen over Sachin, but Kapil over Walsh? This is about names and favorites over any consistent logic.

And you're the one who openly and vocally has stated it's their goal to down grade players, be it Ambrose and Kallis because they challenge Imran, or Lara because he's too close to Sachin.

I don't rank Sachin any lower than most historians or pundits. I don't rate Imran the bowler any lower than anyone else here either. I've been among to first to acknowledge that Bumrah is already an ATG, I don't give a **** where anyone is from.

I'm consistent about how I view jack of all trades all rounders like Botham and Kapil. I'm not choosing them over a specialist who's better at their primary responsibility, but you want to bring the SC into it.

Kapil isn't a great bowler nor a great batsman, how does that player then be seen as an ATG player.

You think I like Barry because he's a South African? You obviously don't know how apartheid is viewed in the Caribbean. I want an aggressive opener who can catch, don't give two hells where he's from. He was better than Sunny when they played, that's good enough for me.

Truth be told, I actively dislike Sunny the human, but guess what. After hearing yesterday about some of the **** that Border said, he's added to the list as well.

So no, I don't go out of my way to downgrade players from the subcontinent, and I take great offence at the suggestion.

But that also doesn't change the fact that Gavaskar isn't and has never been in the BAB conversation, Kapil IMO isn't an ATG and Imran did what Imran did.

I also don't think Walsh was an ATG, I rate Steyn over Ambrose, even if marginally and Lloyd wasn't a great captain.

I include Wasim in my AT team because he deserves it, but also as I've said multiple times, you can't have a world XI with only one player from the SC.

To be perfectly clear, not calling you or insinuating in any way you are a r*****, because you clearly are not, just that you tend to have more reservations for SC cricketers while you are more easily able to give allowances for context for other cricketers. We all have blindspots perhaps.

 

[Johan]

Interesting conversation

 

[kyear2]

Ah right so there must be something wrong with my logic then. Potentially it's that teams don't value lower-order batting enough, or that expecting 40 runs per innings from your worst top 6 bat is unrealistic. What do you think @kyear2?

I think that the importance of lower order batting has been greatly exaggerated on the forum here. At no point in the history of the game has great teams relied on it to the extent that is being projected. You want your best 4 bowlers, preferably one being a spinner to cover all conditions, hopefully one or two can contribute a bit with the bat but it isn't nor can be a primary objective.

I don't know if it's because I want so much American sports, but every year everyone looks at what the best teams do, what positions they prioritize and try to do the same. That's why there's a hierarchy of positional value that starts with quarterbacks and goes the pass rushers and left tackles then receivers and corners.

The same thing rings true for cricket, but instead we go for what looks good on a spread sheet. Partially because it's easier and partially because it's what we do, we apparently love spread sheets.

I take Pat Cummins over Kapil Dev any day of the week.

Lower order batting doesn't make a team better to the point that they dominate. If it graduates to the point that it's consistently relied upon, you have a barring problem. But to fix that problem you don't weaken your bowling to do it. That's again, insanity.

 

[kyear2]

This makes sense. This is what separates Imran, Sobers, Hadlee, Kallis, Gilchrist and Sangakkara from Kapil, Botham, Ashwin, Jadeja, Tony Greig, Matt Prior or Quinton de Koch. Former bunch are ATG in their primary discipline, and they are the latter are not. They are valuable as players and will readily picked over average ones. But if you want to replace a ATG player in the line up, it is not enough. you need an AR with ATG performance in one of the disciplines.

Exactly.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I think it's natural as well. I am aware that I tends to, not exactly overrate, but rate a tad bit higher; Indian players than non Indian ones. Same applies to most posters ig.

 

[kyear2]

can we stop equating normal all rounders with wicket keepers?

Wicket keepers are all rounders.

I have Gilly and Knott in my all rounders top 10, Gilly top 5.

They fill two roles.

 

[Johan]

I'm the only truly neutral person on the site, True. @capt_Luffy use my objectivity as the inspiration.

 

[Johan]

Wicket keepers are all rounders.

I have Gilly and Knott in my all rounders top 10, Gilly top 5.

They fill two roles.

technically everyone fills two roles by fielding and batting/bowling

 

[kyear2]

His bowling suffered more by being a lone warrior in India and not being able to shield himself with other quality support once he was getting smacked. Whereas he can benefit from the pressure others build as 4th seamer which frankly Walsh did to some extent in the 80s.

Agreed his batting takes a bit of a hit though but still useful enough for him to be considered ahead of Walsh.

Like how Kallis or Hammond should be considered ahead of Tendulkar?

Way closer on primary, and both ATG slips and valuable 4th or 5th bowlers?

Don't know when Kapil got this over rated. Easily the 4th of the 80's all rounders.

 

[kyear2]

Huh? This from the guy who screams from the rooftops about the vast importance of slip fielding.

Yes, and daily.

But have you seen me replace Tendulkar with Hammond in my AT XI?

No.

Primary skills first. Thanks for helping me prove my point.

 

[subshakerz]

Glad to see you slowly modifying your opinion. First Kapil is completely unacceptable now it's just for most sides.

There's no world or scenario where Kapil is an even comparable bowler to Walsh.

I don't even see the argument here.

Who's turning down Walsh as you best or 2nd best fast bowler for Kapil Dev.

No team is doing that.

Yeah, Walsh easily more valuable to most sides.

 

[kyear2]

Dude stop being so passive aggressive.

You post absolute garbage, call me racist and talking about passive aggressive.

**** off.

 

[subshakerz]

Yes, and daily.

But have you seen me replace Tendulkar with Hammond in my AT XI?

No.

Primary skills first. Thanks for helping me prove my point.

You stated you would replace Hammond for Kallis in your second ATG XI though based on slips and stuff.

So you still contradict yourself.

 

[subshakerz]

You post absolute garbage, call me racist and talking about passive aggressive.

**** off.

Well at least I don't take half a page of rants to get to my point.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Calm down guys. Don’t take these debates so seriously.

 

[subshakerz]

Calm down guys. Don’t take these debates so seriously.

Bro I'm chill. It's Kyear as usual looking for a reason to be super offended.