Kapil Dev vs Courtney Walsh

[CricAddict]

What bothers me the most in this entire scenario, is that they're posters on this forum that wouldn't select Kallis over Sachin in any team scenario. And the gap between Tendulkar's and Kallis's batting is less than than that between Walsh's and Kapil's.

And Kallis brings a legit 4th or 5th bowler and one of the 5 or so best slip fielders of this century.

I asked the question, if Sobers never bowled a delivery, for a normal test side, would we select Sobers or Tendulkar.

I have both as too 5 batsmen if all time, to be precise very much in the same tier with Sobers conventionally ranked two spots behind the little master. And Sobers is a top 5 slip fielder of all time, and wasn't mentioned, but top close in to the spinners.

It was lunacy, can't sacrifice Tendulkar's "superior" batting, even for a guy pretty much his equal who also happens to be a "slips fieldsman in the class of Hammond and Simpson"

But for a guy who is tiers below Walsh as a fast bowler, you would sacrifice who would likely be your best bowler, for that guy because he can bat. I mean, not test standard or anything, but yeah....

Away from India he averaged 32 with the ball and 26 with the bat. With a wpm of 3.2 and rpi of less than 25 and a rpm of 36.

I am biased towards Sachin. I think most people on this forum know that. So, Sachin will always be the first name on my team sheet, be it in drafts or ATG XIs etc. I still watch Sachin videos at least once a week.

But take any other similar comparison like Lara or Steve Smith and I will take Kallis over them if that is what is required for team balance.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

What bothers me the most in this entire scenario, is that they're posters on this forum that wouldn't select Kallis over Sachin in any team scenario. And the gap between Tendulkar's and Kallis's batting is less than than that between Walsh's and Kapil's.

And Kallis brings a legit 4th or 5th bowler and one of the 5 or so best slip fielders of this century.

I asked the question, if Sobers never bowled a delivery, for a normal test side, would we select Sobers or Tendulkar.

I have both as too 5 batsmen if all time, to be precise very much in the same tier with Sobers conventionally ranked two spots behind the little master. And Sobers is a top 5 slip fielder of all time, and wasn't mentioned, but top close in to the spinners.

It was lunacy, can't sacrifice Tendulkar's "superior" batting, even for a guy pretty much his equal who also happens to be a "slips fieldsman in the class of Hammond and Simpson"

But for a guy who is tiers below Walsh as a fast bowler, you would sacrifice who would likely be your best bowler, for that guy because he can bat. I mean, not test standard or anything, but yeah....

Away from India he averaged 32 with the ball and 26 with the bat. With a wpm of 3.2 and rpi of less than 25 and a rpm of 36.

I actually thought about this myself. People see it as an insult rating Kallis over Sachin as a cricketer but in the same breathe they're arguing for Kapil. Agree with everything you wrote.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Random Kiwi Plug-in smh

True though

 

[subshakerz]

If you've averaging 28 rpi, you aren't a test standard batsman. You are well below par and not a good player.

What about 30 RPI?

 

[subshakerz]

There's no world or scenario where Kapil is an even comparable bowler to Walsh.

Yeah except in WI when you already have three worldclass bowlers and can find a bowling AR more useful.

Think it's pretty obvious Kapil would do better if he had a home career in WI and worldclass bowling support to cushion his stats.

Walsh is a better bowler but this huge gulf you are presenting between him and Kapil doesn't exist.

The fact that you are denying this just shows your stubbornness. But not surprising given how you tend to go out of your way to downgrade SC players for some odd reason.

 

[Migara]

Walsh.

I am thinking of SL team of early 2000s. We had Sanga, Mahela and Sam going well, Murali starting one of the best peaks and Vaas going strong.

The fast, nasty and consistent pace of Walsh would have delivered us way more wins, compared to Kapil, who is a marginal to moderate improvement of Vaas, and simply way similar. His batting would have mattered less when we had a keeper averaging 30 at 7, and Vaas himself averaging 25 with bat.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

If Dravid is the batting equivalent of Walsh, Inzy is the batting equivalent of Kapill.

 

[Migara]

Based on what? Your gut? Ironically, some of Kapils best work actually came vs WI, so take that out plus less matches vs minnowesque SL and his record would be worse. People think you can just shoe horn bowler into 80s WI team and they'd come good. Nope.

80s WI team would have killed for a Kapil dev over Walsh TBF. They had enough Walsh replacements. They never had Kapil Dev replacements. Even the most successful WI all rounder, Carl Hooper was very similar to Dev and was way inferior bowler. Proper AR or a class spinner was 80s WI team's holes.

But to an average side it's different. Walsh as a ATG pacer is way more valuable. And he has shown he could do it by himself when others fail too.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

80s WI team would have killed for a Kapil dev over Walsh TBF. They had enough Walsh replacements. They never had Kapil Dev replacements.

They did before Franklyn Stephenson went to SA

 

[ataraxia]

???

Kapil isn't much more valuable than Chris Cairns. There is no way he's more valuable than Hobbs/Tendulkar.

Ah right so there must be something wrong with my logic then. Potentially it's that teams don't value lower-order batting enough, or that expecting 40 runs per innings from your worst top 6 bat is unrealistic. What do you think @kyear2?

 

[Migara]

They did before Franklyn Stephenson went to SA

Debatable, whether he was as good as Kapil, since he was unproven in tests. Their FC stats looks pretty similar. However I'd give you that.

 

[Coronis]

Kraigg is a below average test batsman. He's not what I would call test standard.

Average and test standard - are they the same things? Or are you guys arguing about different terms for different players?

Kraig Braithwaite the opener - 188 innings 5924 @ 33.15 12 centuries 31.51 rpi, century every 15.67 innings
Other openers during Braithwaite’s career - 4220 innings 137690 @ 33.97 280 centuries 32.62 rpi, century every 15.07 innings

Braithwaite is pretty much an average opening batsman in every respect.

 

[Migara]

Ah right so there must be something wrong with my logic then. Potentially it's that teams don't value lower-order batting enough, or that expecting 40 runs per innings from your worst top 6 bat is unrealistic. What do you think @kyear2?

This makes sense. This is what separates Imran, Sobers, Hadlee, Kallis, Gilchrist and Sangakkara from Kapil, Botham, Ashwin, Jadeja, Tony Greig, Matt Prior or Quinton de Koch. Former bunch are ATG in their primary discipline, and they are the latter are not. They are valuable as players and will readily picked over average ones. But if you want to replace a ATG player in the line up, it is not enough. you need an AR with ATG performance in one of the disciplines.

 

[Johan]

can we stop equating normal all rounders with wicket keepers?

 

[Coronis]

can we stop equating batsmen with bowlers?

Me when I see a new thread in this subforum.

 

[akilana]

Yeah except in WI when you already have three worldclass bowlers and can find a bowling AR more useful.

Think it's pretty obvious Kapil would do better if he had a home career in WI and worldclass bowling support to cushion his stats.

Walsh is a better bowler but this huge gulf you are presenting between him and Kapil doesn't exist.

The fact that you are denying this just shows your stubbornness. But not surprising given how you tend to go out of your way to downgrade SC players for some odd reason.

nah kapil would be targeted by the opposition and he'd have worse bowling record.. his batting average would also suffer because he won't have the benefit of SC pitches.

the irony of you talking about stubbornness

 

[subshakerz]

nah kapil would be targeted by the opposition and he'd have worse bowling record.. his batting average would also suffer because he won't have the benefit of SC pitches.

His bowling suffered more by being a lone warrior in India and not being able to shield himself with other quality support once he was getting smacked. Whereas he can benefit from the pressure others build as 4th seamer which frankly Walsh did to some extent in the 80s.

Agreed his batting takes a bit of a hit though but still useful enough for him to be considered ahead of Walsh.

 

[kyear2]

Sure, let's say that Kapil replacing a team's worst frontline bowler offers zero bowling improvement – or decrease, they were both average. Based on those assumptions, he's still more valuable than Hobbs/Tendulkar, who are obviously both more valuable than Walsh. What do you say to that?

I don't understand what you're even trying to hypothesize here.

And no, in no way or form has Kapil ever been more valuable than Hobbs or Tendulkar. As stated above he isn't even close to being as valuable as Walsh.

This is what happens when we take these ridiculous all rounder accumulative arguments go too far.

At the end of the day, you're as valuable as your primary skill.

 

[subshakerz]

At the end of the day, you're as valuable as your primary skill.

Huh? This from the guy who screams from the rooftops about the vast importance of slip fielding.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

nah kapil would be targeted by the opposition and he'd have worse bowling record.. his batting average would also suffer because he won't have the benefit of SC pitches.

the irony of you talking about stubbornness

....