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Andy Flower vs Ian Botham

Better test cricketer?

  • Total voters
    20
Johan

Johan

International Captain
Migara said:
Flower would have walked in to the English team that Botham played, and would have been the best batsman of the team too.
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Ok?

Chris Tavare and Mike Gatting made that team, what does that have to do with a comparison with Botham. Though, Flower wasn't a better Batsmen than Boycott, there isn't a team in history that Botham isn't making.
 
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Migara

Migara

International Coach
Johan said:
Ok?

Chris Tavare and Mike Gatting made that team, what does that have to do with a comparison with Botham. Though, Flower wasn't a better Batsmen than Boycott, there isn't a team in history that Botham isn't making.
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Wouldn't make South African XI of 2000s, Pakistan of Late 80s to early 90s for example. No way over Pollock and Kallis, no way over Imran, Wasim or Waqar. No way over Qadir too.
 
Johan

Johan

International Captain
Migara said:
Wouldn't make South African XI of 2000s, Pakistan of Late 80s to early 90s for example. No way over Pollock and Kallis, no way over Imran, Wasim or Waqar. No way over Qadir too.
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He's making it over Paul Harris/Morne Morkel/Makhaya Ntini, he's making Pakistan as third pacer alone in most cases with his batting being a bonus.

He might not make the trio (Immy, Wasim, Waqar) + Qadir side as a bowler but people like Ramiz Raja and Zahid Fazal made that side, he'll make it in that side as a batter.
 
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Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
Johan said:
He's making it over Paul Harris/Morne Morkel/Makhaya Ntini, he's making Pakistan as third pacer alone in most cases with his batting being a bonus.

He might not make the trio (Immy, Wasim, Waqar) + Qadir side as a bowler but people like Ramiz Raja made that side, he'll make it in that side as a batter.
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Pretty sure he would because as is so often pointed out Imran was practically not bowling when Waqar came in.
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
Johan said:
He's making it over Paul Harris/Morne Morkel/Makhaya Ntini, he's making Pakistan as third pacer alone in most cases with his batting being a bonus.

He might not make the trio (Immy, Wasim, Waqar) + Qadir side as a bowler but people like Ramiz Raja made that side, he'll make it in that side as a batter.
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Morkel, Ntini and Pollock has not played together. The bowler who played with the first two is Steyn. Given the averages are similar, the natural tendency is to select the bowler who are different, not a slower copy of Steyn. It was either Steyn / Ntini / Morkel or Stryn / Morkel / Philander trio. I don't see any opening for Botham given Kallis also played lot of these matches as the fourth seamer. Botham will not replace a spinner obviously, how bad that spinner is, other than for very few places.

Ramiz Raja opened. Botham has never opened. That point is moot.
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
Coronis said:
Pretty sure he would because as is so often pointed out Imran was practically not bowling when Waqar came in.
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If you want to construct the argument with temporality, during the time Imran was not bowling, Botham was neither bowling nor batting with any meaning.
 
Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
Migara said:
If you want to construct the argument with temporality, during the time Imran was not bowling, Botham was neither bowling nor batting with any meaning.
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lol. The team in history comment obviously refers to a specific time. Saying Botham would or wouldn’t make it is referring to his overall career. Are you going to say he wouldn’t play in 1930 because he wasn’t born?
 
Johan

Johan

International Captain
Migara said:
Morkel, Ntini and Pollock has not played together. The bowler who played with the first two is Steyn. Given the averages are similar, the natural tendency is to select the bowler who are different, not a slower copy of Steyn. It was either Steyn / Ntini / Morkel or Stryn / Morkel / Philander trio. I don't see any opening for Botham given Kallis also played lot of these matches as the fourth seamer. Botham will not replace a spinner obviously, how bad that spinner is, other than for very few places.

Ramiz Raja opened. Botham has never opened. That point is moot.
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I mean, that's just you messing up the standards, at no point did Steyn and Pollock played together when both were good, by the time Steyn got good Pollock was out. So it just really depends on what side you're referencing, if you're referencing the South African side of the first half of the decade then he's making it over Nel, if you're referencing the other half then he's making it over Morkel. When bowlers have similar enough statistics, the logical thing to do is to pick the more destructive pacer who can handle higher workload, Morkel has 8 fifers in 160 innings and Botham has 27 fifers in 168 innings thus having 19 more 5fers in 8 innings, Botham also manages 4 more overs on average than Morkel. It's not even close overall, honestly. He's also just a plain better bowler than Ntini in every way, and also would make it over Philander in Asia or in Australia. I honestly can't think of any saffer team in history where Botham is not making it, he walks into their best ever team (late 2000s) as a bowler alone.

lol, Rignt, because Raza is the only one hm? Zahid Fazal, Mansoor Akhtar and Ijaz Ahmed all made that side for batting, and Botham has batting + his bowling to take over the overs Imran didn't want to bowl/or couldn't as @Coronis pointed out, just give it up.
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
Coronis said:
lol. The team in history comment obviously refers to a specific time. Saying Botham would or wouldn’t make it is referring to his overall career. Are you going to say he wouldn’t play in 1930 because he wasn’t born?
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Exactly. I am referring to the same period, this time in Botham's career, where he was not doing much.
 
Migara

Migara

International Coach
Johan said:
lol, Rignt, because Raza is the only one hm? Zahid Fazal, Mansoor Akhtar and Ijaz Ahmed all made that side for batting, and Botham has batting + his bowling to take over the overs Imran didn't want to bowl/or couldn't as @Coronis pointed out, just give it up.
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Lol, in 1989-92 period Botham was even slower than Imran, and looked filthy and unfit.
 
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