Would Botham make it to your England ATG XI?

[Ali TT]

In the abstract, if you're setting an ATGXI then it's the 11 best players really and Botham makes that for England with ease whether at 6 as part of a 5-man attack or lower down, as peak Botham has a strong case to be among our top 4 ATG bowlers anyway.

Talk of balancing the side, having two spinners etc can only be done meaningfully if you know the opposition and where (and when) the game is being played

 

[Coronis]

In the abstract, if you're setting an ATGXI then it's the 11 best players really and Botham makes that for England with ease whether at 6 as part of a 5-man attack or lower down, as peak Botham has a strong case to be among our top 4 ATG bowlers anyway.

Talk of balancing the side, having two spinners etc can only be done meaningfully if you know the opposition and where (and when) the game is being played

Thats very abstract. Is a keeper one of your greatest 11 players for your country? (in most cases, no). You’re more than likely to have an imbalance of batsmen and bowlers too.

 

[ataraxia]

Talk of balancing the side, having two spinners etc can only be done meaningfully if you know the opposition and where (and when) the game is being played

Strange argument for mine – selecting only one spinner has only really been English strategy in the last 50 years, or even less (from which time period much less than half of the English AT team hail). If anything it's the other way round.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

No. You're comprising the bating/bowling quality. I'd personally go:

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Hammond
Barrington
Compton
Knott+
Verity
Anderson
Trueman
Barnes

Hammond can roll his arm over if needs be.

 

[Coronis]

No. You're comprising the bating/bowling quality. I'd personally go:

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Hammond
Barrington
Compton
Knott+
Verity
Anderson
Trueman
Barnes

Hammond can roll his arm over if needs be.

You don’t think Root’s done enough to put himself above Compton?

 

[Qlder]

No. You're comprising the bating/bowling quality. I'd personally go:

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Hammond
Barrington
Compton
Knott+
Verity
Anderson
Trueman
Barnes

Hammond can roll his arm over if needs be.

That's great. After Hayden, Simpson, Bradman, Ponting and Chappell have tired out the 3 pacers Miller and Gilchrist can come in and feast off Hammond lol

Anyone that doesn't pick a top 5 ATG allrounder when you have one available is crazy imo. People seem to think 4 main bowlers is all you need as they are ATG's and can bowl any side out, but seem to forget they're bowling against ATG batsmen at the same level as them

 

[Sliferxxxx]

You don’t think Root’s done enough to put himself above Compton?

Yeah he is but I generally don't pick players currently playing.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

That's great. After Hayden, Simpson, Bradman, Ponting and Chappell have tired out the 3 pacers Miller and Gilchrist can come in and feast off Hammond lol

Anyone that doesn't pick a top 5 ATG allrounder when you have one available is crazy imo. People seem to think 4 main bowlers is all you need as they are ATG's and can bowl any side out, but seem to forget they're bowling against ATG batsmen at the same level as them

If they can see off the main bowlers, Botham won't make a difference. Besides even at peak, Botham sucked balls vs the one atg batting he faced during his time in both disciplines. You really think he's doing anything against Bradman and co. assuming Truman failed. I don't. An all rounder can be included provided that they are at least atg/great in one of those disciplines: Imran, Hadlee, Sobers, Kallis hell even Pollock etc.

 

[Coronis]

If they can see off the main bowlers, Botham won't make a difference. Besides even at peak, Botham sucked balls vs the one atg batting he faced during his time in both disciplines. You really think he's doing anything against Bradman and co. assuming Truman failed. I don't. An all rounder can be included provided that they are at least atg/great in one of those disciplines: Imran, Hadlee, Sobers, Kallis hell even Pollock etc.

Who are the etc?

 

[Qlder]

If they can see off the main bowlers, Botham won't make a difference. Besides even at peak, Botham sucked balls vs the one atg batting he faced during his time in both disciplines. You really think he's doing anything against Bradman and co. assuming Truman failed. I don't. An all rounder can be included provided that they are at least atg/great in one of those disciplines: Imran, Hadlee, Sobers, Kallis hell even Pollock etc.

This is laughable. People seem to forget, or never knew, how good a bowler Botham was. He was the 2nd fastest pacer to 200 wkts (41 Tests) behind only Lillee (38). Even today only Younis (38) and Steyn (39) have done it faster than Botham

Btw, Marshall and Donald took 42, Hadlee, Garner, Cummins and Bumrah took 44 while Imran, Ambrose and McGrath took 45

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Who are the etc?

Keith Miller.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

This is laughable. People seem to forget, or never knew, how good a bowler Botham was. He was the 2nd fastest pacer to 200 wkts (41 Tests) behind only Lillee (38). Even today only Younis (38) and Steyn (39) have done it faster

Btw, Marshall and Donald took 42, Hadlee, Garner and Cummins took 44 and Imran 45

That's all good and well but none of that mattered vs an actual great batting lineup ie WI. And he'd be bowling to even more intense batting lineups. Including Botham in England's team presumably at 6, IMO, compromises their batting relative to other teams.

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Hammond
Barrington
Botham
Knott

Vs

Hayden
Simpson
Bradman
Ponting
Chappell
Border
Gilchrist+

Vs

Hunte
Greenidge
Headley
Viv
Lara
Sobers
Walcott+

Botham at 6 is just not good enough, even acknowledging that England's top 5 is amazing.

 

[Qlder]

Botham at 6 is just not good enough, even acknowledging that England's top 5 is amazing.

Seems you're in the minority as there are twice as many votes to play him (14-7)

 

[Coronis]

That's all good and well but none of that mattered vs an actual great batting lineup ie WI. And he'd be bowling to even more intense batting lineups. Including Botham in England's team presumably at 6, IMO, compromises their batting relative to other teams.

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Hammond
Barrington
Botham
Knott

Vs

Hayden
Simpson
Bradman
Ponting
Chappell
Border
Gilchrist+

Vs

Hunte
Greenidge
Headley
Viv
Lara
Sobers
Walcott+

Botham at 6 is just not good enough, even acknowledging that England's top 5 is amazing.

I know you don’t want to select current players so Smith and Root are out but I think Kyle Mayers is done with tests

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Seems youre in the minority as there are twice as many votes to play him (14-7)

I'm okay with that. Even the majority can be wrong.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

I know you don’t want to select current players so Smith and Root are out but I think Kyle Mayers is done with tests

???

 

[Qlder]

I'm okay with that. Even the majority can be wrong.

Haha I don't think that's how it works

 

[Coronis]

???

I was trying to come up with a recent Windies middle order batsmen to put in. Slim pickings. Maybe Bonner a better shout.

 

[reyrey]

You don’t think Root’s done enough to put himself above Compton?

I'd love to see Root have a really good Ashes series in Australia. he becomes an automatic choice for me after that.

This is laughable. People seem to forget, or never knew, how good a bowler Botham was. He was the 2nd fastest pacer to 200 wkts (41 Tests) behind only Lillee (38). Even today only Younis (38) and Steyn (39) have done it faster than Botham

Btw, Marshall and Donald took 42, Hadlee, Garner, Cummins and Bumrah took 44 while Imran, Ambrose and McGrath took 45

Worth checking how many innings they did it in. Botham actually did it in fewer innings than Lillee!

 

[Sliferxxxx]

I was trying to come up with a recent Windies middle order batsmen to put in. Slim pickings. Maybe Bonner a better shout.

Brother there are none. Had Holder remained decent and was still going at 27 with ball and 33 odd with the bat, I may have considered him for an all time wi team (home tests only).