Would Botham make it to your England ATG XI?

[capt_Luffy]

Brother there are none. Had Holder remained decent and was still going at 27 with ball and 33 odd with the bat, I may have considered him for an all time wi team (home tests only).

Still kinda pointless with Sobers and Walcott around. Might in team A though.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Haha I don't think that's how it works

I know for a fact that I'm not the only poster who has a minority view on a topic. If a batting lineup is able to see off Truman, Barnes and Anderson, I still don't see how Botham will make any difference. And batting wise, after that intense top 5, there's a huge drop off from Botham on down to number XI. And frankly, England needs all the runs they can muster vs Lillee, McGrath and co.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Still kinda pointless with Sobers and Walcott around. Might in team A though.

At home Holder averages 39 with the bat and 25 with the ball. But i wouldn't actually seriously put him in any WI XI. The only current player who may make the WI team in the future are Seales and Braithwaite. Braithwaite to carry the water, since that's the only cricketing skill he apparently has.

 

[subshakerz]

That's great. After Hayden, Simpson, Bradman, Ponting and Chappell have tired out the 3 pacers Miller and Gilchrist can come in and feast off Hammond lol

Yeah Botham will save them once Trueman and Barnes have been dealt with.

 

[subshakerz]

Botham at 6 is just not good enough, even acknowledging that England's top 5 is amazing.

Honestly England top 5 is so good I am almost tempted to say they can afford Botham.

 

[subshakerz]

No. You're comprising the bating/bowling quality. I'd personally go:

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Hammond
Barrington
Compton
Knott+
Verity
Anderson
Trueman
Barnes

Hammond can roll his arm over if needs be.

Honestly I think Botham is a sort of jack in the box type cricketer who will add a bit with both bat and bowl in unpredictable ways. Since there isn't a confirmed no.6 bat yet like the top 5 I think he can be included.

 

[Coronis]

Honestly England top 5 is so good I am almost tempted to say they can afford Botham.

I mean, can you really say that against Australia, Windies or SA? Though tbh idk how well they can compete with those 3 teams anyway. Perhaps the main focus of the construction of the team should be to ensure victory over Ind/Pak and ensure their place as #4

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Honestly I think Botham is a sort of jack in the box type cricketer who will add a bit with both bat and bowl in unpredictable ways. Since there isn't a confirmed no.6 bat yet like the top 5 I think he can be included.

Once Root retires he'll fill in that 6th spot or push one of the other 3 down. Botham is great and all but neither his batting nor his bowling is good enough to stand up to all time greatness imo (generally). It didn't in his time (vs WI) and he'd be playing vs teams greater than that.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

I mean, can you really say that against Australia, Windies or SA? Though tbh idk how well they can compete with those 3 teams anyway. Perhaps the main focus of the construction of the team should be to ensure victory over Ind/Pak and ensure their place as #4

Where atg fast bowling is concerned, England really has very slim pickings so they need to muster as many runs as they possibly can and Botham at 6 aint helping that cause.

 

[Coronis]

Brother there are none. Had Holder remained decent and was still going at 27 with ball and 33 odd with the bat, I may have considered him for an all time wi team (home tests only).

Seriously its depressing.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

btw was Seales injured or something for the Aussie tour? Too bad we didn’t get to see him and Shamar (when Shamar was bowling well, someone hit his foot with a hammer please) in tandem.

 

[Qlder]

Where atg fast bowling is concerned, England really has very slim pickings so they need to muster as many runs as they possibly can and Botham at 6 aint helping that cause.

What a contradiction. England has slim pickings in ATG fast bowling but you don't pick the once world record holder for most wkts Botham who has 14 test centuries as an extra pacer

 

[Sliferxxxx]

What a contradiction. England has slim pickings in ATG fast bowling but you don't pick the once world record holder for most wkts Botham who has 14 test centuries as an extra pacer

Botham is a good pacer not world class. World class would be top 20ish imo, which Botham clearly isn't. Fast bowlers for England I'd pick ahead of him include: Trueman, Snow, Bedser, Anderson and Statham and Willis. People talk about his peak and that's all good and well. But A. He did nothing really notable during his peak vs the best of his time and B. His non-peak was dreadful.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

What a contradiction. England has slim pickings in ATG fast bowling but you don't pick the once world record holder for most wkts Botham who has 14 test centuries as an extra pacer

Fun fact, Dev also once held the record for most wickets as well. He's making India's team only because they don't really have too many fast bowling options but England does. At least they have more than India.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Seriously its depressing.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

btw was Seales injured or something for the Aussie tour? Too bad we didn’t get to see him and Shamar (when Shamar was bowling well, someone hit his foot with a hammer please) in tandem.

Yup he was injured. Also injured during the Pakistan tour. Whats up with our bowlers and fitness. Good grief.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Honestly England top 5 is so good I am almost tempted to say they can afford Botham.

I am too but is he really adding anything major to either discipline? If Imran, Hadlee, and Sobers were English, they'd easily make their XI. Why? Because all 3 are negligibly worse in their primary discipline (they aren't ) with their secondary discipline being icing on the cake. They take nothing from the team.

 

[Johan]

1. Jack Hobbs
2. Herbert Sutcliffe
3. Len Hutton (C)
4. Walter Hammond
5. Ken Barrington
6. Joe Root
7. Alan Knott (WK)
8. Ian Botham
9. Jim Laker
10. Fred Trueman
11. Sydney Barnes

sadly, the lack of a third Elite ATG pacer lets England down, always. For Botham vs Jimmy, well, think Botham won England a lot more games than Jimmy, and honestly, that's all that matters at the end of the day.

 

[Northerner]

1. Jack Hobbs
2. Herbert Sutcliffe
3. Len Hutton (C)
4. Walter Hammond
5. Ken Barrington
6. Joe Root
7. Alan Knott (WK)
8. Ian Botham
9. Jim Laker
10. Fred Trueman
11. Sydney Barnes

sadly, the lack of a third Elite ATG pacer lets England down, always. For Botham vs Jimmy, well, think Botham won England a lot more games than Jimmy, and honestly, that's all that matters at the end of the day.

Not sure you are correct about England not having an elite 3rd paceman, Larwood was a great bowler, Willis was a great bowler, Botham was too in his peak years, but dropped off rapidly, Snow and Tyson are in their too,

 

[Johan]

Not sure you are correct about England not having an elite 3rd paceman, Larwood was a great bowler, Willis was a great bowler, Botham was too in his peak years, but dropped off rapidly, Snow and Tyson are in their too,

the problem is in ATG XIs the third bowler for Australia would be someone like Miller, South Africa it'd be someone like Pollock or Proctor and Windies would've a whole battery, comparatively England's third would be relatively tame.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

1. Jack Hobbs
2. Herbert Sutcliffe
3. Len Hutton (C)
4. Walter Hammond
5. Ken Barrington
6. Joe Root
7. Alan Knott (WK)
8. Ian Botham
9. Jim Laker
10. Fred Trueman
11. Sydney Barnes

sadly, the lack of a third Elite ATG pacer lets England down, always. For Botham vs Jimmy, well, think Botham won England a lot more games than Jimmy, and honestly, that's all that matters at the end of the day.

This combination probably makes more sense seeing that there isn't a huge gulf between Botham and Anderson. Should England however, get a seamer on the same level as even a Pollock, I'd ditch Sir Ian.

 

[Johan]

This combination probably makes more sense seeing that there isn't a huge gulf between Botham and Anderson. Should England however, get a seamer on the same level as even a Pollock, I'd ditch Sir Ian.

Indeed, it's quite dissapointing that the English batting is so strong while our third pacer is Sir Ian (though, I reckon he was better than his statistics, 26-27 I reckon, played too long for legacy runs), due to the dynamic of the side, you'd really prefer someone like Pollock over Botham in this team.