Better combo round II. Sobers & Marshall vs Sachin and Imran

[kyear2]

+ He's the ultimate downhill skier, most of his runs are underwhelming with a decent 50 here and there.

Been saying this for a while.

Yes his rpi is underwhelming and his rpm is even more disappointing, but even on top of that his numbers are a little boosted by the skiing.

His output is 30 RPI which is commensurate with a 6/7 bat of the era. Mike Gatting for example had 31 RPI and most middle order bats in that range.

Imran at 7 is like Kallis as a 4th bowler.

Where they spent the most of their career, but lacking the overall production of a "specialist" there.

As a 5th bowler and and as a no. 8, they are ridiculously above replacement and a net plus.


None of this is to take away from the fact that Imran was the best lower order bat ever, and more than useful down there.

Contrary to what Subz thinks, I do believe he has an argument for an AT XI, he's just not mine, nor a majority one. But his batting gives him a strong push, and all depends on perspective.

His selection to me is a bit analogous to selecting Hammond because he too was the very best at a secondary, but there are about three others ahead of him on primary.

 

[kyear2]

there's literally ZERO logical reasoning behind picking Sachin and Imran here

I'm not saying that, though I am interested in @Prince EWS and @smash84 reasonings.

Smali's could be possibly guessed, PEWS's is very intriguing.

 

[kyear2]

Yes, he didn't face any minnows but that is cancelled out by Marshall not having to face his own batting lineup which was better than Imran's or Hadlee's. When you consider everything, Hadlee and Imran did not have any net advantage that Marshall didn't have. All 3 had amazing peaks as bowlers which overlapped. Marshall also had a significant advantage of a great slip cordon(by your own admission).

Marshall may still be the numero uno bowler, but it is not written in stone. He isn't Bradman the batsman or Sobers the all rounder. More like Sachin or Hobbs if you leave out Bradman in batting hierarchy. His pole position is very much debatable.

I would argue the advantages that either had over him, but that's a story for another day.

Hadlee also had a great keeper and cordon as well, Coney and Crowe were excellent. Imran focused more on the stumps, not attacking the edge as much.

I don't disagree with your last point, but for me Marshall's primary challenge comes from McGrath and his record isn't quite as well rounded nor his skill set as complete.

I would argue that Marshall's claim to be the best is stronger than who ever the 2nd best batsman's is. Even here it's pretty much evenly split between multiple players.

But no, there's no undisputed claim as there is for Bradman or Sobers.

 

[kyear2]

Looking at the list below, I'd say Imran was equivalent to Vengsarkar, Jones, Greenidge.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Hence why we can't always look at lists.

 

[kyear2]

We can debate how good he was in his peak but I think overall career the example I always give is Logie who played over 50 tests in the 80s as a specialist lower order bat for the WI and Imran was surely better than him. Hence I consider him a border specialist lower order bat.

1. logie struggled to keep his place in the team, evidenced by him barely making it to 50 tests in an era where we must have played around 90, and a good chunk of them were due to his fielding.

And I watched Gus and his funky technique, and he was definitely a better batsman than Imran. And he wants even a player valuable of holding down a full time spot.

 

[kyear2]

Why does that matter more than RPI?

So I'll answer for you.

43.26 to be precise.

And it matters because you brought up value and volume. And a rpm of 43 is no where near or comparable to what Sobers produced and is, as I've said, much more inline with what Kallis did with the ball.

 

[subshakerz]

Been saying this for a while.

Yes his rpi is underwhelming and his rpm is even more disappointing, but even on top of that his numbers are a little boosted by the skiing

Imran at 7 is like Kallis as a 4th bowler.

Where they spent the most of their career, but lacking the overall production of a "specialist" there.

You obviously don't know what you are talking about. Please give me a specialist no.7 and show me his RPI and how it is notably superior to Imran's. And please don't use an outlier like Gilly.

Compare Imran with an RPI of 30 to lower bats of his era.

 

[subshakerz]

1. logie struggled to keep his place in the team, evidenced by him barely making it to 50 tests in an era where we must have played around 90, and a good chunk of them were due to his fielding.

And I watched Gus and his funky technique, and he was definitely a better batsman than Imran. And he wants even a player valuable of holding down a full time spot.

50 tests in the no.1 team in the world is a heck of a lot of tests for a supposed non test standard bat.

And no, Logie with 2 tons isn't better than Imran.

Please stop all these excuses and just accept Imran makes it as a lower order bat for the era, which is obvious. Obvious.

So I'll answer for you.

43.26 to be precise.

And it matters because you brought up value and volume. And a rpm of 43 is no where near or comparable to what Sobers produced and is, as I've said, much more inline with what Kallis did with the ball.

I asked why RPI matters more than RPM when we use RPI all the time for other bats. You didn't answer. Don't bring a stat use for the sake of one cricketer.

Now stop making excuses and show me how an RPI of 30 is substandard for Imran as a lower order bat.

 

[ataraxia]

None of this is to take away from the fact that Imran was the best lower order bat ever, and more than useful down there.

Eh I'm not sure about that. His batting record is propped up by playing at #6, which doesn't really count as lower order.

 

[subshakerz]

Eh I'm not sure about that. His batting record is propped up by playing at #6, which doesn't really count as lower order.

Which is why he should be considered a 6/7 level bat.

 

[kyear2]

You obviously don't know what you are talking about. Please give me a specialist no.7 and show me his RPI and how it is notably superior to Imran's. And please don't use an outlier like Gilly.

Compare Imran with an RPI of 30 to lower bats of his era.

In terms of overall production, his rpm of 43 is a bit lacking.

Gilchrist is the standard, to the point that most of the posters here think that guys like Knott is disqualified even from the conversation of selecting him at 7.

I don't know who to compare Kallis against with regards to notable no. 4 bowlers, but the point remains that both are useable at 4 and 7, but outliers and spectacular as 5th bowler and batting at 8. That's where they're more valuable and above replacement.

They fade into the background a little at the higher spot.

 

[kyear2]

50 tests in the no.1 team in the world is a heck of a lot of tests for a supposed non test standard bat.

And no, Logie with 2 tons isn't better than Imran.

Please stop all these excuses and just accept Imran makes it as a lower order bat for the era, which is obvious. Obvious.



I asked why RPI matters more than RPM when we use RPI all the time for other bats. You didn't answer. Don't bring a stat use for the sake of one cricketer.

Now stop making excuses and show me how an RPI of 30 is substandard for Imran as a lower order bat.

50 tests means you miss about 40% of the tests played, probably even more. Hence you aren't an established batsman.

Becuse you're taking about raw production in relation to value to the team, and the raw production is exceptionally low.

We use wpm exclusively for bowlers all the time, and we look at that along with averages and s/r.

With batsmen we primarily tend to look at averages. None of rpi nor rpm is especially seen as standard.

And again, if you're comparing him to Logie, that's not exactly a standard for an Rico solid established bat.

 

[kyear2]

Which is why he should be considered a 6/7 level bat.

He batted
62 innings at no. 7
30 innings at no. 8
23 innings at no. 6 (most of that late career after he was no longer the strike bowler)

How the actual holy hell can he then be considered primarily a no. 6 / 7 when he batted more at no 8?

You're going purely by your wanting it to be, than what he actually was.

 

[subshakerz]

In terms of overall production, his rpm of 43 is a bit lacking.

Again you don't address the point of Imran's RPI because you know it destroys your argument.

Gilchrist is the standard, to the point that most of the posters here think that guys like Knott is disqualified even from the conversation of selecting him at 7.

Gilly isn't the regular test standard, that's BS, he is a historical outlier and makes it to ATG sides. Knott is more comparable and he has a lower RPI than Imran.

I don't know who to compare Kallis against with regards to notable no. 4 bowlers, but the point remains that both are useable at 4 and 7, but outliers and spectacular as 5th bowler and batting at 8. That's where they're more valuable and above replacement.

There is no 3/4.bowler to compare to Kallis because he is well below that level. Imran compares well to regular test no.7s across the board.

They fade into the background a little at the higher spot.

How does that apply to Imran who averaged higher the more he came up the order? You are just making things up.

 

[Coronis]

50 tests means you miss about 40% of the tests played, probably even more. Hence you aren't an established batsman.

Not sure where you got that. Logie played 52/78 tests the Windies played during his career.

 

[kyear2]

Eh I'm not sure about that. His batting record is propped up by playing at #6, which doesn't really count as lower order.

His record down there is good enough to fight off the competition, which is primarily Hadlee, Pollock and the like.

 

[kyear2]

Again you don't address the point of Imran's RPI because you know it destroys your argument.


Gilly isn't the regular test standard, that's BS, he is a historical outlier and makes it to ATG sides. Knott is more comparable and he has a lower RPI than Imran.


There is no 3/4.bowler to compare to Kallis because he is well below that level. Imran compares well to regular test no.7s across the board.


How does that apply to Imran who averaged higher the more he came up the order? You are just making things up.

You are saying that his production is up there with Sobers's and way ahead of Kallis's bowling.

I'm saying that his overall production is how much runs he accounted for per match. Why do you refuse to look at it from that metric?
Is it because it destroys your argument?

I'm not saying he was horrible at no. 7, I'm saying he's the man and almost an outlier at 8 and offers more value there. The same way Kallis provides more value as the 5th option as well.

I don't say 3 or 4. I specially said 4. Of the non spinner no. 4 bowlers in history, what do their numbers look like? Have there even been consistent non spinner 4th bowlers, imagine as the worst of the pavers, they didn't consistently hang around that much? I've no idea.

Have you ever looked at the matches where he pushed himself up the order? Especially in the earlier years?

 

[subshakerz]

He batted
62 innings at no. 7
30 innings at no. 8
23 innings at no. 6 (most of that late career after he was no longer the strike bowler)

How the actual holy hell can he then be considered primarily a no. 6 / 7 when he batted more at no 8?

You're going purely by your wanting it to be, than what he actually was.

Please allow me to educate you.

Imran also batted 5 times at 4/5.

In those 30 knocks at no.8, several were just him batting one down from no.7 because he promoted a tailender as nightwatchman (Ind 87, WI 86, Aus 82, Eng 82, WI 80, etc.) or where he played an extra bat in the side and one less bowler (WI 88).

So in other words, from 80.onwards, he was a pure no.7 to eventually no.6, and overall, a majority 6/7.

It's pretty asinine to consider him a no.8 (unless in an ATG side) when he batted 7 and above the majority of his career and even averaged over 50 from 6 and below.

 

[kyear2]

Not sure where you got that. Logie played 52/78 tests the Windies played during his career.

He played the same time as Marshall, staring 1 year later and finished 2 years after. Marshall played 81 tests and missed a series that I can think of. Thinking that number should be in the 80's. Not nearly going to check to verify.

 

[kyear2]

Please allow me to educate you.

Imran also batted 5 times at 4/5.

In those 30 knocks at no.8, several were just him batting one down from no.7 because he promoted a tailender as nightwatchman (Ind 87, WI 86, Aus 82, Eng 82, WI 80, etc.) or where he played an extra bat in the side and one less bowler (WI 88).

So in other words, from 80.onwards, he was a pure no.7 to eventually no.6, and overall, a majority 6/7.

It's pretty asinine to consider him a no.8 (unless in an ATG side) when he batted 7 and above the majority of his career and even averaged over 50 from 6 and below.

For everything you're saying. He batted more at 8 than 6.

Rest of it is noise. He wasn't a long term specialist no 6, not till near the end of his career.

Early on, he occasionally pushed himself up when the going was good and advantageous for him.