Better captain in test cricket?

[subshakerz]

I don't rate Lloyd in the absolute top echelon honestly. Great leader and the 4 man pace attack worked wonders, but his tactics were a bit rigid as far as I got to know.

Yeah I don't put him that high either. Top ten though.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Yes

@Cricket Bliss CB Fry wrote: Ofcourse I was a good captain, I had good bowlers at my disposal.

You can have the perfect leader and tactician and everything needed for captaincy, but can't win if your team is ****. Imran and Lloyd just didn't had comparable talent at disposal.

Yes, you need talent…still they lost a home tour to India who were not stronger than Pakistan… Not telling that just because they lost to a weak side at home makes Imran a bad captain…but all time great is far from it

 

[Johan]

@Cricket Bliss CB Fry wrote: Ofcourse I was a good captain, I had good bowlers at my disposal.

You can have the perfect leader and tactician and everything needed for captaincy, but can't win if your team is ****. Imran and Lloyd just didn't had comparable talent at disposal.

True, that's why beating Australia in Australia with a guy with one test of experience, Statham and Bailey is the elite captaincy feat

 

[subshakerz]

Yes

Yes, you need talent…still they lost a home tour to India who were not stronger than Pakistan… Not telling that just because they lost to a weak side at home makes Imran a bad captain…but all time great is far from it

Pakistan never lost to India under Imran home or away. They won in India in 87 and won at home in 83 and drew on 89.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yes

Yes, you need talent…still they lost a home tour to India who were not stronger than Pakistan… Not telling that just because they lost to a weak side at home makes Imran a bad captain…but all time great is far from it

Drew 2, not lost.

 

[subshakerz]

Drew 2, not lost.

Drew one, won two.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Drew one, won two.

84 and 89. Drew 2, won 2.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

The thing is we can judge Lloyd before 79 as he had a team that was competitive but not unbeatable. After that, anybody could have captaincy that team frankly to series victories.

Lloyd deserved credit for building and uniting the side but he gets overrated due to his victory splurge.

anybody captaining is exaggerated…Viv couldn’t get the same reputation with almost a similar strong team.
And they lost the 75 tour to Australia to such a high margin because most of the players inexperience (many like richards, roberts, greenidge had just 1 or 2 tours earlier and i guess Holding debuted there) and Lillee and Thomson were bowling Bodyline… Lloyd considered that unethical to injure a batsmen..
after the Port of Spain loss against India he decided to use the stratergy which suits his bowlers as the Australians are using them and there is hardly any negative reception

 

[sayon basak]

@Cricket Bliss CB Fry wrote: Ofcourse I was a good captain, I had good bowlers at my disposal.

You can have the perfect leader and tactician and everything needed for captaincy, but can't win if your team is ****. Imran and Lloyd just didn't had comparable talent at disposal.

Yeah makes sense. BD would still be crap even if I were the captain.

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Pakistan never lost to India under Imran home or away. They won in India in 87 and won at home in 83 and drew on 89.

yes drew… i first mentioned they couldn’t win bit just forgot the context.. yes drew at home against a weaker side

 

[subshakerz]

84 and 89. Drew 2, won 2.

Imran didn't captain in 84 he was injured, that was Zaheer. He captained in 82-83 (won) and 89 (drew) and won in India in 87.

 

[subshakerz]

yes drew… i first mentioned they couldn’t win bit just forgot the context.. yes drew at home against a weaker side

Ok but they beat a strong Indian team in 82/83 and also won in India.

 

[capt_Luffy]

anybody captaining is exaggerated…Viv couldn’t get the same reputation with almost a similar strong team.
And they lost the 75 tour to Australia to such a high margin because most of the players inexperience (many like richards, roberts, greenidge had just 1 or 2 tours earlier and i guess Holding debuted there) and Lillee and Thomson were bowling Bodyline… Lloyd considered that unethical to injure a batsmen..
after the Port of Spain loss against India he decided to use the stratergy which suits his bowlers as the Australians are using them and there is hardly any negative reception

Viv couldn't get the reputation but he held similar results though.

 

[capt_Luffy]

yes drew… i first mentioned they couldn’t win bit just forgot the context.. yes drew at home against a weaker side

I think Pakistan under Imran that decade had enough success vs India to not hold one drawn series in some uber flat tracks when Imran was a shadow of his former self as a bowler against him hard.

 

[subshakerz]

anybody captaining is exaggerated…Viv couldn’t get the same reputation with almost a similar strong team.

Viv had a weaker and aging team without the pace quartet hence not the same dominance.

And they lost the 75 tour to Australia to such a high margin because most of the players inexperience (many like richards, roberts, greenidge had just 1 or 2 tours earlier and i guess Holding debuted there) and Lillee and Thomson were bowling Bodyline… Lloyd considered that unethical to injure a batsmen..
after the Port of Spain loss against India he decided to use the stratergy which suits his bowlers as the Australians are using them and there is hardly any negative reception

Sure that's fair so Lloyd to me gets credit as a team builder only.

 

[govinda indian fan]

I think Pakistan under Imran that decade had enough success vs India to not hold one drawn series in some uber flat tracks when Imran was a shadow of his former self as a bowler against him hard.

Also imran himself agreed that they were overconfident and understimated indians who refused to buckle

 

[kyear2]

In before reading the thread and can't be anyone but Mark Taylor.

 

[kyear2]

Imran is the best of those listed there followed by Llyod.

But tactically and in terms of positive cricket, Mark Taylor is the best I have seen and is rivaled by Chappell, Benaud and Armstrong among the greatest ever.

In what metric or by argument is Imran better than Lloyd.

Neither were great captains, but what the argument for Imran over Lloyd. One took a team that was being pummelled to the greatest of all time.

 

[kyear2]

another question where the answer is Hutton

From all I've read he was so damn negative and defensive. His first objective was not to lose.

 

[kyear2]

How can we call a captain an ATG if he hasn't won any overseas tour. Couldn't win the 1989-90 home tour against a weaker India. There may be reasons but can't be labelled an ATG without any of these... On the other hand Lloyd even 'blackwashed' England overseas... Yes England was weaker than West Indies...but enough weak to get blackwashed at home? No.... and Jardine did the impossible

Good points.