• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

Bill Woodfull vs Graeme Smith

Better test batter?

  • Total voters
    10
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

International Coach
Johan said:
South Africa is probably on par with the New Zealand Trueman feasted on considering how weak their batting has been and how bowler friendly they are, even Siraj gets 6/15 here and iirc every SA pacer puts ATG numbers. Trueman in West Indies is pretty great bar two tests when he was 23 and ran into one of the strongest battings ever on actual roads. Regardless of that, I rate Trueman and Lillee more for the peer rating and impact on fast bowling while I simultaneously believe their away records having holes is more a result of less opportunities then of lack of skill. I see Trueman as a bit of a Steyn who never got his India.
Click to expand...
I think you are giving Trueman a quite big benefit of doubt while giving Cummins none. No, NZ was a legit minnow back then. They and SA aren't equal, especially given Cummins played in a relatively low scorer (and Siraj is legit Great in SA). 23 is young but not that young to give a total pass and his subsequent tour was very good but not Great really. Cummins better in 2019 Ashes. Also re peer rating, Trueman wasn't really highly rated during his career. Him being benched away largely wasn't hugely unpopular and some (notably Cowdrey) argued he should had been benched more if anything in greentops in favour of the medium pacers like Cartwright, Shackleton and Jackson. He and Statham were rated around as equals and definitely behind Larwood and Bedser (and largely Tom Richardson). His reputation took a significant hike in the 70s
 
Johan

Johan

International Captain
capt_Luffy said:
I think you are giving Trueman a quite big benefit of doubt while giving Cummins none. No, NZ was a legit minnow back then. They and SA aren't equal, especially given Cummins played in a relatively low scorer (and Siraj is legit Great in SA). 23 is young but not that young to give a total pass and his subsequent tour was very good but not Great really. Cummins better in 2019 Ashes. Also re peer rating, Trueman wasn't really highly rated during his career. Him being benched away largely wasn't hugely unpopular and some (notably Cowdrey) argued he should had been benched more if anything in greentops in favour of the medium pacers like Cartwright, Shackleton and Jackson. He and Statham were rated around as equals and definitely behind Larwood and Bedser (and largely Tom Richardson). His reputation took a significant hike in the 70s
Click to expand...
Cummins averages 27 odd in England, same as Trueman while getting more reasonable wickets and having the worst English batting lineup since the war to bowl to in 2019, I'm not particularly impressed. South Africa has legit been very easy for pacers, if you don't believe me then the average output in South Africa for pacers since 2016 has been 25 odd, this is almost as low as the output in 50s. You put far too much thought into what Cowdrey or Hutton thought, Shackleton was called up and averaged, Shackleton averaged 42 in test Cricket, Cartwright was also not too good during his time up in test, none of them are better than Trueman and him being benched after he did well in ridiculously flat serieses in both Windies and Australia just shows how bad the English selection policy was.

well duh, Bedser has the 1950-51 Ashes, and Larwood bodyline so they'd be rated higher, his reputation taking a hike doesn't mean much, it takes time for people to look at things objectively in retrospect, like, do you really believe Statham is close to Trueman?
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

International Coach
Johan said:
Cummins averages 27 odd in England, same as Trueman while getting more reasonable wickets and having the worst English batting lineup since the war to bowl to in 2019, I'm not particularly impressed. South Africa has legit been very easy for pacers, if you don't believe me then the average output in South Africa for pacers since 2016 has been 25 odd, this is almost as low as the output in 50s. You put far too much thought into what Cowdrey or Hutton thought, Shackleton was called up and averaged, Shackleton averaged 42 in test Cricket, Cartwright was also not too good during his time up in test, none of them are better than Trueman and him being benched after he did well in ridiculously flat serieses in both Windies and Australia just shows how bad the English selection policy was.

well duh, Bedser has the 1950-51 Ashes, and Larwood bodyline so they'd be rated higher, his reputation taking a hike doesn't mean much, it takes time for people to look at things objectively in retrospect, like, do you really believe Statham is close to Trueman?
Click to expand...
Statham is kinda close to Trueman for me, closer than say Dravid is to Sachin
 
Johan

Johan

International Captain
capt_Luffy said:
Straight up ignoring Trueman's first WI tour in which Statham was actually good......
Click to expand...
no cutting or dismissing or whatever here, that's their general numbers against the two strongest battings. Statham also has the WPM of 3.6 compared to Trueman's 4.6.
 
Johan

Johan

International Captain
capt_Luffy said:
Oh you included home..... Well that's fair, kind off. FTR, Trueman has 59@30 and Statham 69@31 away against them.
Click to expand...
well Yeah, one can always discuss context but 24 vs 32 against strong teams of your time isn't a contest. FTR I rate Statham as one of the elite ATVGs.
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

International Coach
Johan said:
well Yeah, one can always discuss context but 24 vs 32 against strong teams of your time isn't a contest.
Click to expand...
Trueman played much higher percentage of his matches against them at home. For reference, Statham played Australia 8 and WI 5 times at home and Trueman did 11 and 10
 
Johan

Johan

International Captain
capt_Luffy said:
Trueman played much higher percentage of his matches against them at home. For reference, Statham played Australia 8 and WI 5 times at home and Trueman did 11 and 10
Click to expand...
Statham in those 13 games: 45 @ 32.2, 2 5fers.

if anything, he was lucky to play less at home. also, Statham in Australia played 14 compared to Trueman's 8, taking 43 @ 31.7 at a pathetic 3.0 WPM, Trueman took 29 @ 27.4 at 3.6 WPM.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Top