Rank the 80s allrounders against the WI

[capt_Luffy]

And Barrington is better than Viv. Tracks imo.

Actually yeah. They also played very different bowlers. A better comparison would be Imran with 37 and Botham with 33, like that's a peak comparison

 

[Johan]

Actually yeah. They also played very different bowlers. A better comparison would be Imran with 37 and Botham with 33, like that's a peak comparison

Excuse me?

 

[Coronis]

Excuse me?

I thought you liked English players.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Are you talking about #7-8 Imran "padding his stats by playing as bat only @ #6 to get average up to Miller's 37, whilst not bowling", compared to Botham "obviously declining years where he never should have been selected" (his last 5 years were 2 years no play, play 3 tests, 2 years no play, play 5 tests)

That's a lot of words to say Imran averaged 37 and Botham 33. Also like now playing as a pure bat at 6 is stat padding!!!!??? And are you the same guy who called my take uninformed for choosing Darren Lehmann (45) over Kim Hughes (37.4)??

 

[Johan]

I thought you liked English players.

he should've said Hutton

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Under Imran's captaincy in the 80s, Pak never lost a series to Windies either home or away. Imran's team was the only team to win a Test match against the Windies in their backyard in the entire 80s decade. They were also the only team to come back undefeated from a West Indies tour in that decade. Those Pak-Windies series in the 80s were absolute dogfights.

Here is an excerpt from an article on those Pak-Windies 80's series (this article was published in 2007).

"Modern Test cricket can be akin to the school playground: the batting bullies prey upon frail bowlers who are given little or no support by both the authorities/rules and their culture. But at least this damage has a natural limit: sticks and stones may break your bones, but X-rated figures will never hurt you. It was different in the 1980s, when West Indies' army of fast bowlers turned Test cricket into a war zone. They were armed with so much more than sticks and stones - when they brutalised England inside three days in Sabina Park in 1986 Wisden Cricket Monthly described it as "cricket's equivalent to the Somme". But amid the rubble and bodies left in their wake, one opponent stood proud and unbeaten. In three Test series against the otherwise omnipotent Windies in the late 80s and early 90s, Pakistan drew 1-1 each time.
...
...
The only other sides to draw a series with West Indies in that period were India and New Zealand, each at home, but when they went to the Caribbean they were both mangled. Not Pakistan under Imran's captaincy. Their bald record suggests a very special side: they were the only team to win a Test in the Caribbean in the 80s, the only team to avoid defeat in a series in the Caribbean between 1974 and 1995.
...
...
Their battles with West Indies, in three series in 1986-87, 1987-88 and 1990-91, are forgotten epics of the game. In an age when flat pitches and high scores predominated, these were revelatory dogfights, low-scoring scraps of such quality and artistic integrity that they might have been produced by HBO: in four of the nine Tests the first-innings difference was 25 or under, and only one of 35 innings exceeded 400. Each time Pakistan won the first Test of a series; each time West Indies roared back like champions; each time Pakistan resisted an almost violently turning tide to emerge from the series with a draw.
...
...
When West Indies returned to Pakistan, in 1990-91, the hosts had lost a Qadir and found a Waqar Younis. It turned out to be a decent trade, and he took nine wickets as Pakistan breezed to victory by eight wickets in the first Test despite only three players reaching double figures in their first innings: Shoaib (86 in eight hours), Malik (102) and Imran (73 not out). History repeated as West Indies cantered home by seven wickets in the second Test, and again in the third as Imran - just as in 1986-87 - ensured a draw by batting five hours for an unbeaten 58 on the final day.

It was fitting that the last word went to Imran, because he lorded over these contests like a colossus. Despite a series of ailments he was Pakistan's only ever-present in those three series (West Indies had five). Nobody on either side got near his 45 wickets at the blistering average of 14.87, and he added 356 runs at 32.36 for good measure. At the age of 38, this was his last significant act in Test cricket. He could retire safe in the knowledge that he had not lost the final battle, and that he had never lost the war."

West Indian fast bowler Andy Roberts on Pakistan

The bolded is a patented lie. Wi beat Pakistan 2-1 at home in 1977.

 

[pardus]

The bolded is a patented lie. Wi beat Pakistan 2-1 at home in 1977.

Was Imran the captain of Pakistan team then?

 

[smash84]

Was Imran the captain of Pakistan team then?

Nope. Imran only became captain from the 81-82 tour of England IIRC. Definitely not in the 70s.

 

[pardus]

The bolded is a patented lie. Wi beat Pakistan 2-1 at home in 1977.

The article was very specifically talking about Pakistan team under Imran’s captaincy.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

The article was very specifically talking about Pakistan team under Imran’s captaincy.

My bad. Then maybe they should limit the time-frame to when he was actually captain: 1982 to 1990.

 

[BazBall21]

Kapil did averages 31 against them with 1000+ runs and 3 centuries alongside a few very good knocks. Would definitely say that's great from a no 7 vs that line-up.

I was responding to the point about WI targeting the opposition captain in the 80s.

Kapil averaged 25 v WI with the bat in the 80s. The late 70s attack he faced was a pale shadow of those attacks.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I was responding to the point about WI targeting the opposition captain in the 80s.

Kapil averaged 25 v WI with the bat in the 80s. The late 70s attack he faced was a pale shadow of those attacks.

42 away and was our 2nd best batsman in that series, with a great century. Has another century, a 98, a 69 and a couple of 40s, with only two not outs (one literally being 0*). As a high impact lower order attacking bat, his WI record is noway near Great, but I think certainly much better than the average might suggest.

 

[BazBall21]

42 away and was our 2nd best batsman in that series, with a great century. Has another century, a 98, a 69 and a couple of 40s, with only two not outs (one literally being 0*). As a high impact lower order attacking bat, his WI record is noway near Great, but I think certainly much better than the average might suggest.

I don't know about much better than his average suggests but he has a few good performances v them with the bat.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I mean, that's kinda what I mostly expect from an attacking no 7

 

[BazBall21]

I mean, that's kinda what I mostly expect from an attacking no 7

Meeting expectations is a different argument to being valued as a significantly better batsman v WI than his average suggests.

The odd good batting performance was a valuable addition to doing very well against them with the ball.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Meeting expectations is a different argument to being valued as a significantly better batsman v WI than his average suggests.

The odd good batting performance was a valuable addition to doing very well against them with the ball.

The competition was here Hadlee, who averaged 32 vs them. I said Kapil is better than him vs them. Also like, his 83 tour was legit good batting.

 

[BazBall21]

The competition was here Hadlee, who averaged 32 vs them. I said Kapil is better than him vs them. Also like, his 83 tour was legit good batting.

Hadlee just imo. Both did very well.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Hadlee just imo. Both did very well.

Kapil for me for doing good both home and away. Hadlee was kinda just there in the away tour.

 

[BazBall21]

Kapil for me for doing good both home and away. Hadlee was kinda just there in the away tour.

He did well on the tour if not setting the world alight and he was outstanding in both home series.

And while Kapil isn't at fault for the results as he did very well, Hadlee has to take some credit for being the leading pillar behind holding WI to series draws which was a rare accomplishment.

 

[capt_Luffy]

He did well on the tour if not setting the world alight and he was outstanding in both home series.

And while Kapil isn't at fault for the results as he did very well, Hadlee has to take some credit for being the leading pillar behind holding WI to series draws which was a rare accomplishment.

No doubt Hadlee did infact won and drew a series vs WI. That's a fair point. I just think Kapil doing much better away all round and close to that at home, especially with double the matches, wins this.