*Unofficial* New Zealand Black Caps Thread

[Bahnz]

Averaged 51 at home as an opener too

 

[Athlai]

I'm absolutely with you that he was by no means a great opener but it's a fair argument that he might be marginally better than Latham. Opening wouldn't be the best place to play McCullum if you were trying to get the most out of him, but in picking a first XI for NZ - Baz doesn't crack the middle order, and he doesn't get the gloves.

 

[ataraxia]

Richardson
McCullum
Williamson
Taylor
Fleming
Watling +
de Grandhomme
Vettori
Wagner
Boult
Southee

is best IMO

 

[Bahnz]

I'm absolutely with you that he was by no means a great opener but it's a fair argument that he might be marginally better than Latham. Opening wouldn't be the best place to play McCullum if you were trying to get the most out of him, but in picking a first XI for NZ - Baz doesn't crack the middle order, and he doesn't get the gloves.

Perhaps, but it's not one I agree with. Setting aside Zimbabwe, McCullum only averaged more than 30 against 2 countries (India and Pakistan), whereas Latham tops 30 v India, SL, Pakistan, WI, Bangladesh and England. Lies, damned lies and statistics you might say, but the only countries that Latham's really sucked against (SA and Aus), McCullum also sucked against.

Again, I think there's a case to be made that if McCullum had played under himself as coach he might well have been a 40+ average, 100+ SR monster. But I just don't think there's enough evidence from his opening career to suggest he's a better option than Latham.

 

[Mike5181]

Even though he's **** now, i do think conway is a bit underrated in these discussions.

In games played together when both opening:

Tom Latham: 1093 with an average of 29.54. (think there was one 32* at number 3)
Devon Conway: 1358 with an average of 36.70

Conway also has some great away performances:
- player of the series against England away, including 200 at Lords
- top individual score with 54 in low scoring WTC final. second highest runs in match after Williamson.
- crucial scores of 91 (first test) and 74 (second test) against India in India. scored 201 runs in the first 2 tests, averaging 50 and pushing nz to 2-0 to win the series. only Ravindra had more runs in the first two games.

 

[Athlai]

Even though he's **** now, i do think conway is a bit underrated in these discussions.

In games played together when both opening:

Tom Latham: 1093 with an average of 29.54. (think there was one 32* at number 3)
Devon Conway: 1358 with an average of 36.70

Conway also has some great away performances:
- player of the series against England away, including 200 at Lords
- top individual score with 54 in low scoring WTC final. second highest runs in match after Williamson.
- crucial scores of 91 (first test) and 74 (second test) against India in India. scored 201 runs in the first 2 tests, averaging 50 and pushing nz to 2-0 to win the series. only Ravindra had more runs in the first two games.

I have him as 4th best in the 2000s currently. Wouldn't be surprised if he moves up either.

 

[NZTailender]

I'm absolutely with you that he was by no means a great opener but it's a fair argument that he might be marginally better than Latham. Opening wouldn't be the best place to play McCullum if you were trying to get the most out of him, but in picking a first XI for NZ - Baz doesn't crack the middle order, and he doesn't get the gloves.

If you discard his keeping innings his record in the middle order means he might be a better shout than Fleming by 2 runs overall.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Obviously those with under 10 matches should be disregarded

 

[Mike5181]

If you discard his keeping innings his record in the middle order means he might be a better shout than Fleming by 2 runs overall.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Obviously those with under 10 matches should be disregarded

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Most impressive thing about Fleming is his away numbers. Literally doubles McCullum's average.

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

Fleming had a ridiculously good record in Sri Lanka when they had peak Murali.

 

[Bahnz]

Even setting Murali aside though, the only country where Fleming averaged less than he did in NZ was Australia, and even then his average v Aussie in Aussie (29) was way better than his average v Aussie in NZ (20).

I did always kinda think Fleming was a bit overrated by overseas commentators. Turns out the reason why was because he was a star on tour, and only started stinking up the joint when 90% of the cricketing world was fast asleep in bed.

 

[Mike5181]

filtering out the weaker sides like bangladesh, zimbabwe, (west indies for taylor). fleming and taylor basically have opposite records. fleming averages 45 away and 33 at home, Taylor averages 44 at home and around 33 away/neutral.