Imran Khan vs Curtley Ambrose

[subshakerz]

What is SR of IK ? Did he strike far quicker than 57?

If not then it simply means he took more wickets in each match due to bowling more.

At home Imran's SR is 47, far far better than Ambrose at home.

 

[Randomfan]

@Randomfan let's forget about Imran for a second.

Regarding Ambrose: Would you agree that for him to have 90 percent of his wickets in Aus, Eng and home, and outside that only 36 wickets in 12 tests, is a legitimate issue with his record?

Yes, it's a legitimate point. It can be an issue or not an issue depending on who we are comparing.

For example, it's a legitimate point to consider and also a big issue if Ambrose gets compared to Marshall. Marshall can go toe to toe with Ambrose in over all away record so legitimate points becomes a big issue. it's still a legitimate point but not that big an issue when comparing with IK due to output gap being so wide in away conditions.

We have only 3 away large sample size for both where both have lots of tests.

Aus, Eng and over all away. Ambrose outperforms in those 3.

You can say that it was his favoute condition, but some one else will say that that's the only sample size where both bowled and can be comapred due to large number of tests.

 

[Randomfan]

At home Imran's SR is 47, far far better than Ambrose at home.

First let's agree on talking about Ambrose weakness away and this WPM arguemnt. Let's not jump from one to another, its hard then.

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What is the SR of Ambrose away? What is SR of Ambrose in 2-3 least favourable venues?

What is SR of IK away? What is SR of IK in 2-3 least favourable away venues?

If IK is not striking far qjuicker than Ambrose in above questions then WPM harly means much. It only means that IK bowled more due to team being dependent on IK. WPM does not convey anything in that situation.

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Once we have discussed this WPM and weakness of Ambrose away, we can discuss home record for both.

 

[subshakerz]

Yes, it's a legitimate point. It can be an issue or not an issue depending on who we are comparing.

For example, it's a legitimate point to consider and also a big issue if Ambrose gets compared to Marshall. Marshall can go toe to toe with Ambrose in over all away record so legitimate points becomes a big issue. it's still a legitimate point but not that big an issue when comparing with IK due to output gap being so wide in away conditions.

Thanks for agreeing it's a legitimate point.

As for Imran and the output gap away, I would argue that the tradeoff is concentrated but less varied success in the case of Ambrose vs more varied but slightly less top end success in the case of Imran. Does that make sense?

 

[subshakerz]

What is the SR of Ambrose away? What is SR of Ambrose in 2-3 least favourable venues?

What is SR of IK away? What is SR of IK in 2-3 least favourable away venues?

If IK is not striking far qjuicker than Ambrose in above questions then WPM harly means much. It only means that IK bowled more due to team being dependent on IK. WPM does not convey anything in that situation.

This critique is not just WPM.

It is sample size and WPM.

He has 34 tests in Aus and Eng and took 166 wickets in them.

Outside that, he has only 12 tests in Pak, SL, SA, NZ (no India) and only 36 wickets.

That is the problem. Not only does he have a small sample outside Aus and Eng but he did little of note in them. It's an imbalanced record.

 

[Coronis]

If you are striking at 40 with less WPM than some one striking at 60 with higher WPM, How is second bowler better depsite having a higher WPM.

Well then I’d assume the bowler striking at 60 is probably more valuable to their team tbh (assuming averages and everything else are equal/equivalent). Clearly they can bowl longer spells efficiently. Quite important for the team.

 

[Randomfan]

Well then I’d assume the bowler striking at 60 is probably more valuable to their team tbh (assuming averages and everything else are equal/equivalent). Clearly they can bowl longer spells efficiently. Quite important for the team.

Yes, I agree. Your assumption will be true if the bold part is true.

That's why I feel bringing WMP is a good data point for bowlers with similar outputs. It shows that you could produce the same output despite bowling a lot more and as you said quite important for the team. But if the gap is wide then I don't think WPM argument adds much to the debate.

 

[Randomfan]

This critique is not just WPM.

.....

It's an imbalanced record.

Bold part is true. His record is not a balanced one.

 

[kyear2]

Australia and England Cricket Boards are Rich so the Test Cricket is Centered around them, So other team players have to put extra efforts to be in the discussion with the star players from these countries.

Yeah, it's literally the countries decide where they're going based on finances, the better draw and the best teams of the time.

It's not to satisfy someone's checklist 30 years later.

For us, it was Australia and England. Think it's PEWS who said it wasn't so much that Lillee didn't play as much everywhere, but that he wasn't better considering where he played.

 

[DrWolverine]

Curtly has only 12 tests in Pak, SL, SA, NZ (no India) and only 36 wickets.

That’s just bad.

 

[Van_Sri]

Good Analysis that’s what I was saying Bumrah > Waqar

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah, it's literally the countries decide where they're going based on finances, the better draw and the best teams of the time.

It's not to satisfy someone's checklist 30 years later.

For us, it was Australia and England. Think it's PEWS who said it wasn't so much that Lillee didn't play as much everywhere, but that he wasn't better considering where he played.

You prefer others over Lillee for the same reason.

 

[subshakerz]

Good Analysis that’s what I was saying Bumrah > Waqar

It's obvious he is. It's just whether we declare it now or later in Bumrahs career.

 

[Van_Sri]

Yeah, it's literally the countries decide where they're going based on finances, the better draw and the best teams of the time.

It's not to satisfy someone's checklist 30 years later.

For us, it was Australia and England. Think it's PEWS who said it wasn't so much that Lillee didn't play as much everywhere, but that he wasn't better considering where he played.

Yes it was not his important priority to play in these countries but it also doesn’t mean he would have succeeded everywhere or failed.

 

[kyear2]

Ambrose effectively has nothing in SL and India and mixed returns in Pakistan.

So Aus, Eng and WI account for nearly 90 percent of his wickets. Very similar to Lillee with Aus, Eng and NZ. He should be bracketed with him.

When Imran played SL were minnows, and he didn't succeed in India.

Where did Imran succeed that Ambrose didn't?

He wasn't as good as Ambrose in Australia nor England. Similar small sample size in NZ and was moderate there as well.

This well rounded argument is not nearly accurate. Over his career without cherry picking (for which you don't allow for Ambrose), he didn't average below 24 in any country. His strike rate away from home is 60.

And for the peer rating person, and for the talk of rating with Lillee, there isn't a batsman who faced them both who rates Imran above Lillee.... Not a single one. So if anyone should be rated with Lillee, it is Imran, and that's exactly where I group him. With Lillee, Donald, Lindwall, Holding and Garner.

But feel free to share in which country did Imran perform better than Ambrose.

 

[kyear2]

South Asia XI : 1) Saeed Anwar 2) Sunil Gavaskar 3) Rahul Dravid 4) Sachin Tendulkar 5) Javed Miandad 6) Kumar Sangakkara+ 7) Shakib Al Hasan 8) Imran Khan* 9) Wasim Akram 10) Muttiah Muralitharan 11) Jasprit Bumrah - Wasim and Bumrah shares the New Ball followed by Imran and once the Ball is old Murali and Shakib will take over.

Like this squad.

Would replace Javed with Younis, but that's my biggest gripe.

 

[kyear2]

just say subcontinent bro

1. Vijay Merchant
2. Sunil Gavaskar
3. Kumar Sangakkara
4. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Javed Miandad
6. VVS Laxman
7. Risabh Pant (WK)
8. Imran Khan (C)
9. Wasim Akram
10. Muttiah Muralitharan
11. Jasprit Bumrah

Who's your 5th bowler?

Not a necessity to you?

 

[Johan]

Who's your 5th bowler?

Not a necessity to you?

with a guy like Murali, I don't think it's needed tbh

 

[DrWolverine]

Murali can keep on bowling from one end since he is used to doing it for almost his entire career

 

[subshakerz]

When Imran played SL were minnows, and he didn't succeed in India.

Where did Imran succeed that Ambrose didn't?

He wasn't as good as Ambrose in Australia nor England. Similar small sample size in NZ and was moderate there as well.

As expected, you are not addressing any of the issues related to Ambrose.

Ambrose has 90 percent of his wickets in the friendly conditions of Aus, Eng and home, and in the small samples outside of that he accomplished little.

Please recognize this weakness and stop deflecting to Imran this Imran that.