Imran Khan vs Curtley Ambrose

[Prince EWS]

Interesting since I recently decided to rate Steyn slightly ahead of Imran, and my primary reason is he maintained worldclass standards as a bowler for much longer.

Imran played longer but he wasn't really a world class bowler for that whole period, yeah.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Oh this again? Imran has been decisively beaten, therefore a certain poster's narrow minded agenda needs to be put to rest. Imran was great but he just wasn't anything special outside of an amazing peak. Whereas Ambrose was just great from start to finish and much much better outside his home country than Imran. Isn't there some absurd fact that Ambrose remained in the top ten fast bowlers for most of his career despite stiff competition?

 

[Prince EWS]

Oh this again? Imran has been decisively beaten, therefore a certain poster's narrow minded agenda needs to be put to rest. Imran was great but he just wasn't anything special outside of an amazing peak. Whereas Ambrose was just great from start to finish and much much better outside his home country than Imran. Isn't there some absurd fact that Ambrose remained in the top ten fast bowlers for most of his career despite stiff competition?

At least it's actually in an Imran thread.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

Ambrose did not have a poor start in tests. After his debut series he rocked it in England and Australia. You skipped those two series in between and went back to his failed series against India at home in 89-90. But if you look at his record, he has countless low WPM series at home somewhat randomly in the 90s in the middle of more productive series. For example in 97 against India, he took 10 wickets in 5 tests. So this was a constant problem.


Comments like this reveal why Ambrose gets a tad overrated based on blind average reading.

His record in those countries is not good. It's not anything really.

6 wickets in 2 tests in NZ doesn't really show anything in that sample.

In Pakistan, 15 wickets in 5 games basically is from one good series on lively tracks and one horrible series where he was spanked around.

In SA, he took 13 wickets in 4 tests but had only one spell of substance and was unpenetrative aside from that.

Worth noting that in all three series, 95 NZ, 97 Pak and 98 SA, he was completely outbowled by Walsh on the same wickets.

Folks on CW really give Ambrose a pass for his post-94 career.

Umm no. Those tracks weren't lively at all. They were the usual Pakistan low and slow wickets. Where do you even get that notion from? The score cards? Some of us followed via radio and those wickets were typical Pakistan wickets just that both teams had awesome bowling which kept the runs down. Further proof, check series played around the same time vs NZ or the Indian tour a year earlier.

 

[Sliferxxxx]

At least it's actually in an Imran thread.

For a change......

 

[Van_Sri]

Ambrose has the same issues as Lillee of gaps in his record with small samples elsewhere.

Imran was simply a more rounded bowler across conditions than Ambrose. Basically I don't think Ambrose could have succeeded in the SC and his away record is pretty much only Eng and Aus. Wasn't particularly great at home either.

Ambrose didn’t play much outside West Indies, England and Australia. Took only 36 Wickets outside these countries. Imran took 107 Wickets outside Pakistan, England and Australia. Ambrose could have Averaged around 25 in Sub-Continent.

 

[subshakerz]

Umm no. Those tracks weren't lively at all. They were the usual Pakistan low and slow wickets. Where do you even get that notion from? The score cards? Some of us followed via radio and those wickets were typical Pakistan wickets just that both teams had awesome bowling which kept the runs down. Further proof, check series played around the same time vs NZ or the Indian tour a year earlier.

You can read the match reports which describe the first test pitch as having uneven bounce, the second test as aiding seam and movement in the air, and the third test pitch having cracks that widened as the test went by. Doesn't sound like flat tracks at all.

NZ series was low scoring.

India yes we're dead tracks but that was some time earlier.

 

[subshakerz]

Whereas Ambrose was just great from start to finish and much much better outside his home country than Imran.

Yeah except Ambrose wasn't great in the latter half and only great outside home in Aus and Eng.

 

[Prince EWS]

You can read the match reports which describe the first test pitch as having uneven bounce, the second test as aiding seam and movement in the air, and the third test pitch having cracks that widened as the test went by. Doesn't sound like flat tracks at all.

Move over seamy roads, come on down minefieldy roads.

 

[DrWolverine]

Ambrose Took only 36 Wickets outside these countries - West Indies, England and Australia.

Marshall : 80 wickets outside WI, Eng & Aus
Hadlee : 85 wickets outside NZ, Eng & Aus
McGrath : 137 wickets outside Eng, Aus & WI
Ambrose : 36 wickets outside Eng, Aus & WI
Steyn : 127 wickets outside Eng, Aus & SA
Donald : 79 wickets outside Eng, Aus & SA
Imran : 107 wickets outside Eng, Aus & Pak
Lillee : 6 wickets outside Eng, Aus & NZ
Garner : 36 wickets outside Eng, Aus & WI
Holding : 37 wickets outside Eng, Aus & WI

 

[DrWolverine]

Obviously Lillee was unproven. We also have to accept Ambrose & Garner did not much outside Aus/Eng/WI.

 

[sayon basak]

Marshall : 80 wickets outside WI, Eng & Aus
Hadlee : 85 wickets outside NZ, Eng & Aus
McGrath : 137 wickets outside Eng, Aus & WI
Ambrose : 36 wickets outside Eng, Aus & WI
Steyn : 127 wickets outside Eng, Aus & SA
Donald : 79 wickets outside Eng, Aus & SA
Imran : 107 wickets outside Eng, Aus & Pak
Lillee : 6 wickets outside Eng, Aus & NZ
Garner : 36 wickets outside Eng, Aus & WI
Holding : 37 wickets outside Eng, Aus & WI

Include the WPM, that'll be cool.

 

[subshakerz]

Marshall : 80 wickets outside WI, Eng & Aus
Hadlee : 85 wickets outside NZ, Eng & Aus
McGrath : 137 wickets outside Eng, Aus & WI
Ambrose : 36 wickets outside Eng, Aus & WI
Steyn : 127 wickets outside Eng, Aus & SA
Donald : 79 wickets outside Eng, Aus & SA
Imran : 107 wickets outside Eng, Aus & Pak
Lillee : 6 wickets outside Eng, Aus & NZ
Garner : 36 wickets outside Eng, Aus & WI
Holding : 37 wickets outside Eng, Aus & WI

Which is why I say Ambrose has a similar issue to what Lillee has, small samples outside of his favored bowling places.

 

[DrWolverine]

Include the WPM, that'll be cool.

Marshall : 15 matches. 80 wickets.
Hadlee : 17 matches. 85 wickets.
McGrath : 34 matches. 137 wickets.
Ambrose : 12 matches. 36 wickets.
Steyn : 29 matches. 127 wickets.
Donald : 19 matches. 79 wickets.
Imran : 25 matches. 107 wickets.
Lillee : 5 matches. 6 wickets.
Garner : 8 matches. 36 wickets.
Holding : 10 matches. 37 wickets

WPM
Marshall : 5.3
Hadlee : 5
Garner : 4.5
Steyn : 4.37
Imran : 4.28
Donald : 4.15
McGrath : 4.029
Holding : 3.7
Ambrose : 3
Lillee : 1.2

 

[Van_Sri]

Which is why I say Ambrose has a similar issue to what Lillee has, small samples outside of his favored bowling places.

Ambrose got some hammering by Inzamam

 

[Van_Sri]

 

[DrWolverine]

For now, Marshall is the best with Hadlee behind him.

There are like 6-7 bowlers who are behind them and one can find holes in their record based on your likes/dislikes.

P. S : If you have 250+ wickets, that’s enough longevity for me as a fast bowler in the last 50 years.

 

[Van_Sri]

Australia and England Cricket Boards are Rich so the Test Cricket is Centered around them, So other team players have to put extra efforts to be in the discussion with the star players from these countries.

 

[Bolo.]

Well they played longer and still averaged less. Simple measure but it's a starting position I usually need to be budged from with extra context and I don't think there's much to do that here. Steyn played in a more batting-friendly era but that didn't really apply in South Africa where he got to play 56% of his games. All very close though.

Ease of home pitches in your own era will have more of an impact than away pitches, even assuming a 50/50 split. No matter how batting friendly an era is the impact of playing across multiple countries is going to smooth out somewhat.

In Steyn's case the impact of bowling at better bats does balance this out though.

 

[subshakerz]

Marshall : 15 matches. 80 wickets.
Hadlee : 17 matches. 85 wickets.
McGrath : 34 matches. 137 wickets.
Ambrose : 12 matches. 36 wickets.
Steyn : 29 matches. 127 wickets.
Donald : 19 matches. 79 wickets.
Imran : 25 matches. 107 wickets.
Lillee : 5 matches. 6 wickets.
Garner : 8 matches. 36 wickets.
Holding : 10 matches. 37 wickets

WPM
Marshall : 5.3
Hadlee : 5
Garner : 4.5
Steyn : 4.37
Imran : 4.28
Donald : 4.15
McGrath : 4.029
Holding : 3.7
Ambrose : 3
Lillee : 1.2

Essentially what I meant by being well rounded and why I rate Marshall, McGrath, Hadlee, Steyn and Imran ahead of the rest, in that order.

Nobody denies Ambrose was awesome in Australia. But so was Lillee in England. Doesn't mean they were as proven as others.

The reality is that many posters simply did raw average reading of Ambrose away without looking at pure output outside England and Aus.